Traverse dives (from the Divers doing stupid things thread.)

[Greenwood_60]

I think it's as simple as "it's not covered". Which then puts it outside of the training for an Intro diver. If you cover it with your instructor, go for it. Don't dive outside of your training. It's not complicated, but you should have a clue what to do when you hit the end of the line (like Olsen). If it's an offset sink, it's more like a jump. The issue then becomes navigation, and going the correct direction when you get back on the line. Not complicated, but again, not covered by an intro course.

The rules of all the agencies I know of are absolutely clear: At the intro level there are no jumps, no circuits, no traverses. It doesn't matter if they are simple or not.

Just checked. My NACD Intro in Doubles card says "Main line penetration only".

[Nitrogenius]

Well how about simple jumps? Or a simply circuit? Or a simple DPV dive? At least a simple T maybe?
What about simply syphons like PIII and the Well?
Or simple solo dives?

Well that is quite polemic, isn't it?
I am not aware of any specific destinction between something like a simple or a complex jump, nor for a DPV dive , or a T etc..

However I have been taught in IANTD a difference in simple and complex traverses as well as circuit..
I have not been taught about these things at all (also not as a restriction from my diving) at Intro level..

The rules of all the agencies I know of are absolutely clear: At the intro level there are no jumps, no circuits, no traverses. It doesn't matter if they are simple or not.

Well and that is the point. I have never heard of no circuit or no traverse as a rule for an Intro Diver by any agency.. hence I raised the question..
For sure such rule does not exist in IANTD.
It is quite clear that the complex versions simply can't be done by an Intro Diver, but what about the simple versions..
Maybe other training agencies did not distinct between the simple and complex.. I don't know.. We did.. so I raised the question.
Interestingly over that long period nobody was able to really answer it so far nor was an instuctor able to shed some light..

I wonder why..

The "only" limitations I had learned at Intro level where:
- 6th on Twins or 3rd on singles
- 30m max depth
- no deco
- some min visibility restriction at entering the cave I would have to look up in the books
- no restrictions (even minor)
and very restrictive:
- no navigation points at all! Even not crossing over laid jumps along the mainline upon entry in the cave.. If there is a jump shortly after start of mainline and the jump is connected.. that's as far as this dive goes.. Bad luck as this then already represents a T..

but these are all the restrictions.. No word on traverse or not..
I was just raising what would prevent an Intro from doing a simple traverse and what would make such simple traverse a traverse..
And Voila..
this made me aware of a flaw in my thought process:

I think it's as simple as "it's not covered". Which then puts it outside of the training for an Intro diver. If you cover it with your instructor, go for it. Don't dive outside of your training. It's not complicated, but you should have a clue what to do when you hit the end of the line (like Olsen). If it's an offset sink, it's more like a jump. The issue then becomes navigation, and going the correct direction when you get back on the line. Not complicated, but again, not covered by an intro course.

Just checked. My NACD Intro in Doubles card says "Main line penetration only".

and of course with "my" rules as an Intro I'd be restricted from doing a traverse as well..

The only way to actually safely exit according to the rules at most of the caves would be by running another line to open water.. This would represent a jump and a navigational point and would be off the mainline so this is what would stop you to actually exit the water (similar as you would not be able to close a simple circuit)..

All different and back to square one though for caves with permanent line reaching all the way into open water... as e.g. in my Dos Palmas - Mott Mott example..

[nakatomi]

Well that is quite polemic, isn't it?

Yes of course, that was the point and I'm sorry if I forgot a Smiley

The rules are generally very clear in that Intro to Cave only allows diving along the main line, as you mentioned, with no navigational decisions allowed.
Leaving the main line to exit and possibly re-enter the cave would be a navigational decision. The main issue I see is that it is not covered in training.

In practice, taking Peacock as an example, Intro divers very often swim from Peacock 1 to Olsen sink, only to surface there for a short break and swim back.
Technically that would be traverse, as you mentioned, and of course somewhat of a simple traverse.
Even though people do it on a regular basis, I would assume that strictly speaking, it would be a violation of the rules.

[jj1987]

Well how about simple jumps? Or a simply circuit? Or a simple DPV dive? At least a simple T maybe?
What about simply syphons like PIII and the Well?
Or simple solo dives?

The rules of all the agencies I know of are absolutely clear: At the intro level there are no jumps, no circuits, no traverses. It doesn't matter if they are simple or not.
Personally, and that's my opinion, if someone can do the simple version, getting to the full cave level will be a piece of cake too

I think you're throwing up some absolutely ridiculous comparisons to cover your confusion.

A simple traverse means no gas planning needs to take place, no verification is required, because it's just a mainline dive that happens to reach another entrance. That's substantially different than someone attempting to do a traverse where diving one side and then the other is required.

Let me ask you this-- what is taught in full cave that would change how an intro diver swims mainline from P1 to Olsen within 1/6ths?

[nakatomi]

ILet me ask you this-- what is taught in full cave that would change how an intro diver swims mainline from P1 to Olsen within 1/6ths?

The need to run a line back into open water is not covered in Intro class. The same is true regarding proper marking of the (main) line in case it's continuous, since jumps are not taught at the intro level and this will be a jump.

Besides, while my examples were meant to be sarcastic, they are not all that ridiculous. In practice this is exactly what some Intro divers do. I've seen all of it happen, except for DPV diving at the Intro level.

[Nitrogenius]

A simple traverse means no gas planning needs to take place, no verification is required, because it's just a mainline dive that happens to reach another entrance.

Not quite, though.. It is only the first part of your sentence that makes a traverse simple from a complex one..
There are also simple traverses possible which include navigation along the traverse, son not only mainline.. Obvioulsy these are not for the Intro unarguably..
You are most likely aware of that, I just wanted to point that out for an outside reader who might not know..

The need to run a line back into open water is not covered in Intro class. The same is true regarding proper marking of the (main) line in case it's continuous, since jumps are not taught at the intro level and this will be a jump..

Well in case the line is continuous there will not necessarily be a jump, but your right a continuous line along an open water entry/exit must also be properly marked in case you want to continue your dive.. and that has not been taught at Intro level, so is not an option.
There still remains that small fraction however of these caves with continuous line through Open Water. If you decide you want to end the dive there, then there is no marker needed on this line. You simply surface and then have to exit there, but hence you'd have conmpleted a traverse..

So from that angle I think the strict Intro=No traverse at all is not correct (as it is also not taught that way in IANTD at least), but with a deeper analysis in it is is correct that in maybe 95% of the cases there will be some (ABSOLUTELY VALID BTW) rules preventing an Intro Diver to complete a traverse..
Hence I can now see and understand how at least on a hearsay basis a rule: Intro = No traverse at all might have been developed and formed!

So from my side this part of this thread is settled and closed.. I don't expect to achieve further insight

[jj1987]

The need to run a line back into open water is not covered in Intro class. The same is true regarding proper marking of the (main) line in case it's continuous, since jumps are not taught at the intro level and this will be a jump.

Besides, while my examples were meant to be sarcastic, they are not all that ridiculous. In practice this is exactly what some Intro divers do. I've seen all of it happen, except for DPV diving at the Intro level.

I believe this is covered in intro-- I seem to recall that I was told to place an arrow pointing out and run a spool if I wanted to look around in a dome room, or leave the line to look up on a ledge. I was even drilled in between distance markers to get me turned around to prove the necessity of marking the line when you do anything which might turn you around.

[Greenwood_60]

I believe this is covered in intro-- I seem to recall that I was told to place an arrow pointing out and run a spool if I wanted to look around in a dome room, or leave the line to look up on a ledge. I was even drilled in between distance markers to get me turned around to prove the necessity of marking the line when you do anything which might turn you around.

This was not covered in my Intro. Likely a simple oversight.

[Ben M]

This was not covered in my Intro. Likely a simple oversight.

Lost buddy drill?

[Greenwood_60]

Lost buddy drill?

Good point.