Traverse dives (from the Divers doing stupid things thread.)

[Omisson]

Well this is why I raise the questions to the instructors out there..
for which we may never know does not compute for me. I do not follow rules because these are rules. I follow rules for which I understand the reason. I am hesitent breaking rules as I just might not see the reason, so I ask for reasoning.
If no reason can be brought up such rule seems to have no justification..
I can follow your simplification train of thought thoug. That makes some sense, however is still a bit weak. IMHO..



Can't comment on specific FL caves as mentioned earlier..



What would stop them from entering an Intro dive from there ?

While I can't comment on ACTUALLY why the rule was originally posited, I can offer a probable basis.

Sheck and other early cave divers, after reviewing fatalities and incidents surrounding this sport came to understand empiracally, human nature.

In analyzing incidents especially incidents involving exceeding training, a baseline of human nature can be drawn. We are creatures of habit - good and bad. We tend towards routinization and route patterns. Our complacency springs from familiarization and repetition, and in that acclimatization to cutting corners when there is no perceived consequence, we all fall prey. We will repeat bad behavior when there appears to be no harm to us.

Simple Traverses will INEVITABLY lead to complex ones. ITS HUMAN NATURE.

Even the knowledge that Olsen is "right there" doesn't change that it is a blind traverse the first time -despite being attested to by divers and maps... Peacock is easy... See?

We made it- GREAT! that's not so hard... Next challenge....

No traverses means no traverses. No chance for the human nature to begin the slippery slope towards complacency and acclimatization.

I think it's a rule worth keeping.


Dan-O

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[apitkin]

Would jump from the rim deck at Madison in doubles qualify for Stupid or do I need a card for that?

It depends on what else you were wearing, and whether there was photographic evidence.

[FW]

Would jump from the rim deck at Madison in doubles qualify for Stupid or do I need a card for that?

It depends on what else you were wearing, and whether there was photographic evidence.

It might be a moot point with the river up so high, it is probably just a a giant stride right now

[jj1987]

Does anyone really care if an intro diver does a traverse, that doesn't require special gas planning? When we start making bold stances on small details like this I think it can cause intro divers to think all rules are random, and less respect is paid to them.

[LiteHedded]

Does anyone really care if an intro diver does a traverse, that doesn't require special gas planning? When we start making bold stances on small details like this I think it can cause intro divers to think all rules are random, and less respect is paid to them.

when i was an intro diver before I knew it I had run into open water at catfish from the manatee headspring. the world kept spinning.

[shellmoundal]

What Ranger Chris was referring to was probably the rule at Manatee State Park that in order to dive Friedman's you must be "Full Cave" and have either dove it before or be with a "Full Cave Diver" that has.
I dove Catfish last week and I am "Full Cave Certified". The diver with me was not "Full Cave" so he would not allow us in Friedman's. I had no problem with that and we had a good dive in Catfish.
Ranger Chris has a job that requires him to follow the State Park rules. There have been in the recent past Intro and Apprentice Divers in Friedman's. Remember, Friedman's is a long way from Catfish. I feel this is what he was referring to and I support his efforts. A person is never popular when he does his job properly. We all want the Gray Area in our lives. The problem with Gray is that it can easily turn BLACK.

[Nitrogenius]

What Ranger Chris was referring to was probably the rule at Manatee State Park that in order to dive Friedman's you must be "Full Cave" and have either dove it before or be with a "Full Cave Diver" that has.
I dove Catfish last week and I am "Full Cave Certified". The diver with me was not "Full Cave" so he would not allow us in Friedman's. I had no problem with that and we had a good dive in Catfish.
Ranger Chris has a job that requires him to follow the State Park rules. There have been in the recent past Intro and Apprentice Divers in Friedman's. Remember, Friedman's is a long way from Catfish. I feel this is what he was referring to and I support his efforts. A person is never popular when he does his job properly. We all want the Gray Area in our lives. The problem with Gray is that it can easily turn BLACK.

Ok so you are suggesting, that the "no traverse" is not a Intro Cave diver limitation per se, but a state park implied rule?
Still leaves the question being somewhat unanswered so far if there really is an Intro limitation to "no traverese" by the training agencies or not. According to some replies there might be.
I for my side at the Intro level stage with IANTD had certaintly not be told and taught anything that would prevent me from doing a simple traverse. I just would not have known that I would have done a simple traverse as even the defintion of a traverse had only been taught in the Full Cave portion. So I would have been able to dive to another cave exit on the mainline within my sixth and exit there, obvioulsy maintaining a continuous guideline at all times, which in the consequence would require aditional on land logistics to collect the gear. Either not exiting in the first place (no traverse then) or to dive back collect the primary at the intitial entry and drive back to entry 2 to retrieve that Primary (assuming there would not be a line to the surface otherwise) or not diving back and collecting the Primary at the exit in a second short dive and then get the primary at the initial exit crossing over by land..

One can see from that elaboration that the logistic effort seem somewhat blown out of proportion and hence it would rise the sense to do something like that. Nevertheless I am not aware of any limitation I would have had at Intro which would have stopped me from doing so..
Obvioulsy the cause for this logistic nightmare is in fact the rule of the continuous guidleline, but this one is not to be broken at any level!!! Unfortunately yet it is in reality as the fatalities statistics show to often.. Pretty sad!
That exactly is the reason why in my world there is no such thing like a visual Jump or not running a primary because you can see the exit from the end of the permanent line but not being in Open Water with straight ascend to the surface..

[Greenwood_60]

Traverse at intro or not, likely what the OP is talking about is downstream traverses at Manatee. Even within penetration gas limits, it's stupid at intro. I don't imagine many intro divers would bother doing an upstream traverse within penetration gas limits, since the ride back is free.

[Nitrogenius]

Traverse at intro or not, likely what the OP is talking about is downstream traverses at Manatee. Even within penetration gas limits, it's stupid at intro. I don't imagine many intro divers would bother doing an upstream traverse within penetration gas limits, since the ride back is free.

Well I am not sure what is the appropriate approach to gas planning etc. for a downstream dive a such at Intro level.. I do not remember other than the general planning for contingecies requirement..
But I am less interested in the actual practical question, I think a simple traverse is pretty moot in most circumstances anyways. I am more trying to understand if there really is a restriction on a simple traverse by some agencies and if so what is the logic behind it, as I might oversee something here as well..
It is soley out of interest as well, as this is the first time I came across somebody stating that generally traverses where a no go at Intro level..

[nakatomi]

I think a simple traverse is pretty moot in most circumstances anyways.

Well how about simple jumps? Or a simply circuit? Or a simple DPV dive? At least a simple T maybe?
What about simply syphons like PIII and the Well?
Or simple solo dives?

The rules of all the agencies I know of are absolutely clear: At the intro level there are no jumps, no circuits, no traverses. It doesn't matter if they are simple or not.
Personally, and that's my opinion, if someone can do the simple version, getting to the full cave level will be a piece of cake too