Traverse dives (from the Divers doing stupid things thread.)

[vicp]

Well I tend to disagree a bit. You don't know what you don't know. As it had been discussed in that other thread as well. He had been told that he should not do it but reading through it seems he had never been told really why he should not do it other than he shouldn't for not being trained and potentially getting killed one day.
My take is, this is not enough. Because people try, get away with it a while and thus figure that it all might just be a big fuzz..
When talking to people explain them what the real dangers are. Ask questions what they would do in this and that situation and how they would solve it.. Then let them know that is the training they need in order to know the proper action..

I do see your point - you don't know what you don't know. As a certified OW diver, the father should have at least known about the depths he was dealing with. He also should have known that taking his *uncertified* in anything-scuba son there was also incredibly stupid - if not actually homicidal. But I think, he (they?) actually knew about the reputation Eagle's Nest had as they apparently had discussed it (social media?). I guess what they did not know was how easily it could kill them - and that is complete stupidity (idiocy or any other word you care to use). Even if ignorant of the dangers, he (they?) should have seen what they were getting into as they were doing it. I wonder if any alarms went off? I am full cave, have never been to Eagle's Nest, but I do know that if and when I go there to dive, it will be with the proper protocols and with a knowledgeable guide.

But that is a bit Off topic.
Obviously what the reanger is saying is all very valid. Just one thing does not make too much sense to me: The traverse. I do see no reason why an Intro diver should not be able to do a SIMPLE traverse. This is all within the limits of the training you just exit at another point. (assuming of course you do not pass navigational points)..

The intro/basic/cave 1/apprentice limits are really a confusing mess between the different agencies and therefore do not have a lot of credibility with divers training towards full cave. I do agree with some of the intentions of limiting penetration & complex navigation, and breaking up the cave cert into manageable pieces as it is much better to acquire these skills over a longer period of time rather than a zero-to-hero 8 day course. I also believe that the convoluted cert levels and limitations leading to full cave are intended to lessen the liability of the agencies. Previous to the cert mania of the last several decades, many divers dove without any certifications and eventually got them as they became available or fashionable. When I first started diving over 30 years ago, I took a one day (afternoon) scuba course in a New England Divers pool in Beverly, Mass before I went to Jamaica as I wanted to dive there. When I got to the dive operator, they threw me into a pool (with very poor vis) and told me if I could find the scuba gear at the bottom and put it on before surfacing, I was good to go on their dive trips. It took me about 30 minutes to find everything and put it on before surfacing (was I a mess) - and then I was good to go - down to 70' to 80' in crystal clear waters on the Jamaican reefs without any previous training other than the afternoon in the pool. It was only a few years later that I got certified (YMCA, NAUI, PADI) when an OW scuba course finally became available at a local YMCA.

To answer your question, I believe that any kind of traverse (even simple) is not allowed at any of the intro/basic/cave 1/apprentice levels (unless of course you are taking cave instruction).

I wonder what Sheck did before HE got cave certified (I know - I know, I am not and no one else is Sheck)

[nakatomi]

I wonder what Sheck did before HE got cave certified (I know - I know, I am not and no one else is Sheck)

I believe he nearly got himself killed many times, including in Eagles Nest, which is all detailed nicely in his books.

[Nitrogenius]

To answer your question, I believe that any kind of traverse (even simple) is not allowed at any of the intro/basic/cave 1/apprentice levels (unless of course you are taking cave instruction).

That does not appear to make much sense.. So if an Intro diver reaches another exit of a cave within his thirds (single tank or sixths Twin) he is not allowed to exit because then it would be a traverse? So he is forced to dive back and therefore increasing the overall risk of the dive?
Does not seem to compute

[Kelly Jessop]

That does not appear to make much sense.. So if an Intro diver reaches another exit of a cave within his thirds (single tank or sixths Twin) he is not allowed to exit because then it would be a traverse? So he is forced to dive back and therefore increasing the overall risk of the dive?
Does not seem to compute

Looks like this thread is heading for a different subject. There are a lot of site specific conditions for this scenario,but if gas is planned correctly,then going to a specific location,and turning at turn pressure should allow for a safe exit. If an emergency occurs,then more likely the intro diver would proceed to that exit point. Normally many traverses involve doing a dive where you are exceeding your turn pressure,such that the dive plan calls for you making it to your next exit-but of course the dive has been tested from both locations. The one consideration if you look over the years,there have been more cave diving fatalities (medical issues eliminated) with intro/cavern divers than any other group. To recent memory,some accidents at Peacock (visual jump), and JB & LR (scooters).

[Nitrogenius]

Sorry for the highjack, but this is an interesting topic, maybe it could be split?

Looks like this thread is heading for a different subject. There are a lot of site specific conditions for this scenario,but if gas is planned correctly,then going to a specific location,and turning at turn pressure should allow for a safe exit. If an emergency occurs,then more likely the intro diver would proceed to that exit point.

So are you saying that an Intro diver reaching another cave exit within their gas limit is/ should be only allowed to exit there in case of an emergency? Maybe I misunderstand, but the comment in regards to the emergency and the likeliness of the Intro diver exiting there leadsa me to that conclusion as I hope you are not saying that an Intro diver should exit at an otherwise unknown exit in case of an emergency in such case I hope he is in fact returning to his original exit..

Normally many traverses involve doing a dive where you are exceeding your turn pressure,such that the dive plan calls for you making it to your next exit-but of course the dive has been tested from both locations.

Sure that would be a complex traverse though rather than a simple traverse.
A complex traverse is certaintly out of the question for an intro diver..

So exactly this is the question, is a simple traverse forbidden for an Intro diver?
If so, why? And at which point does the dive then become a traverse?

[ARY]

Would jump from the rim deck at Madison in doubles qualify for Stupid or do I need a card for that?

[nakatomi]

So exactly this is the question, is a simple traverse forbidden for an Intro diver?
If so, why? And at which point does the dive then become a traverse?

A traverse (at least all the traverses I am aware of) involves planning, setting and cleaning up. An intro diver is not trained for that.
Also an intro diver may not navigate, especially not jump off the main line.
So with that in mind, let's look at the Eye/Ear in the Devil's system as an example, how is an intro diver entering through the Eye supposed to exit through the Ear without breaking his training limits?
He would need to either set up a line from the Ear during a previous dive, which would be setting up a traverse, or he would have to get off the line and do a visual jump to the cavern/surface exiting through the Ear.
Either way, it's not within the scope of training. It may work, or it may not. I can't really say because I'm not intro anymore and not taking chances

[Nitrogenius]

A traverse (at least all the traverses I am aware of) involves planning, setting and cleaning up. An intro diver is not trained for that.
Also an intro diver may not navigate, especially not jump off the main line.

It seems we get hung up on semantics maybe. Maybe also here there is a difference between traning agencies in terminology as well.
All my trainings are with IANTD.
For cave we learned:
Simple Traverses , complex traverses, simple circuits, complex circuits.
The difference between simple and complex in both relations is:
Is it done in one dive or do you need multiple dives (i.e. (a) setup dive(s)) to complete the endeavour.

So a simple circuit would be a circuit you complete (get back to the starting point of the circuit) within your gas rules (whatever you have decided or are forced to dive, ie thirds, fourths, sixth...).
So at any point within the circuit when you encounter a problem you return the way you entered.
A complex circuit needs a setup dive, once you pass the point of no return you have to go on in case you are having an issue. Clearly this is not for the cave diver. It involves navigation and other procedures the intro has not been trained for.
A simple circuit also can never be "completed" because the latest at the point where you started the circuit the dive has to be turned as with Intro you MUST not make that final connection. So you turn the dive there.

Similar applies to the traverse:
A simple traverse is done in one dive, so within your gas limits of (whatever rule your are diving with) if you need to brek these rules to complete it. It is not a simple traverse anymore but a complex one and needs at least one setup dive. Clearly a complex traverse is not for the intro diver for the same reasons as a complex circuit.
But what makes a traverse a traverse. Actually nothing else then starting a dive at one entrance and exiting at aonother entrance. (at least that is what I have learned as a definition for a traverse).
So depending on the cave this might be possible without any navigation (main line only) and without breaking the gas rule applicable.
Giving an example (of Mexico as I am not familiar with the Florida systems yet):
From Dos Palmas to Mott Mott for example. This is Mainline only as far as I remeber and a diver with a good SAC should be able to get to Mott Mott within a sixth.
So once the diver reaches Mott Mott within the gas limits and he would get out of the water and end the dive there, he would have completed a simple traverse.
Should he be stopped from that just because he is Intro? If so, why?
Once he does not exit obvioulsy there is no discussion about this dive, because then it would just have been a dive within intro limits anyways, happening to have an "airpocket" at the turning point..
Then it would not be a traverse as well, so no discussion..
But Just to be clear: I do not see any reason why an Intro diver should not be able to do such SIMPLE traverse if he likes..
If that makes sense at all is another question, because to get transport from there is probably more effort as just diving back to Dos Palmas

[Kelly Jessop]

So are you saying that an Intro diver reaching another cave exit within their gas limit is/ should be only allowed to exit there in case of an emergency? Maybe I misunderstand, but the comment in regards to the emergency and the likeliness of the Intro diver exiting there leadsa me to that conclusion as I hope you are not saying that an Intro diver should exit at an otherwise unknown exit in case of an emergency in such case I hope he is in fact returning to his original exit..

The creators of this rule,which doesn't allow an intro diver to do a traverse,had their rationale,for which we may never know,since the intro program has been around for over 20+ years. I can think of an instance where an intro diver has an emergency,such as Olsen,and they will see light,do you think they will turn around at this point for exit,or continue ahead-this is obvious. How about if they went to Lafayette,with convoluted line indicators,and the arrows indicate an exit point ahead,but there is no visible light,probably not prudent to continue at this point. There are other traverses that passing to the exit causes a silt out,so does an intro diver belong here. The big problem is the creators of the standards for the intro program probably ran into is that each system is different,and you can't really have a rule that says do this in this circumstance,but don't do this in this situation. So be conservative,and say no traverses at the intro level-that avoids defining complex versus simple traverse. I have to say this rule,like most rules we have were created because somebody died.

[Nitrogenius]

The creators of this rule,which doesn't allow an intro diver to do a traverse,had their rationale,for which we may never know,since the intro program has been around for over 20+ years.

Well this is why I raise the questions to the instructors out there..
for which we may never know does not compute for me. I do not follow rules because these are rules. I follow rules for which I understand the reason. I am hesitent breaking rules as I just might not see the reason, so I ask for reasoning.
If no reason can be brought up such rule seems to have no justification..
I can follow your simplification train of thought thoug. That makes some sense, however is still a bit weak. IMHO..

I can think of an instance where an intro diver has an emergency,such as Olsen,and they will see light,do you think they will turn around at this point for exit,or continue ahead-this is obvious. How about if they went to Lafayette,with convoluted line indicators,and the arrows indicate an exit point ahead,but there is no visible light,probably not prudent to continue at this point.

Can't comment on specific FL caves as mentioned earlier..

There are other traverses that passing to the exit causes a silt out,so does an intro diver belong here..

What would stop them from entering an Intro dive from there ?