Divers doing Stupid Things in the State Park Cave Systems.

[vicp]

The large font got your attention, didn't it

Yup! It's called SHOUTING.

OK guys, give Ranger Chris a break! We are very lucky to have a ranger that actually cave dives, and cares enough to post about a problem. We all should be supporting him!

I do support Chris, appreciate a ranger that does cave dive, and wish him all the success in his cave diving endeavors. Other than that, I asked him a question about the role he takes while diving in regards to a lot of the issues we have discussed here - such as OW divers and such entering overheads and being confronted, challenged and in some cases physically removed. The other disagreement that I might have with Chris is equating the Eagle's Nest tragedy ("...Going outside the limits and rules of your level is exactly what the father and son did the day after Christmas. It is no different when and(sp) Intro Diver does a Traverse or a Jump...") with intro divers going past their agency limits. Entering from the Eye and exiting by the Ear or vice-versa is technically a traverse but may be a very prudent thing to do in the event of some issue requiring it and should be doable by any intro and even cavern diver. Cave 1 - the NAUI equivalent of intro - allows some jumps and thirds with doubles. Then there is basic (variant of intro?) and that expires(?) or something like that. My TDI intro card does not mention configuration and specifies thirds - understand that later ones may have specified sixths for doubles(?), again, I don't know. When I called TDI - "the horse's mouth" - I got different statements from different people; "sixths is just for training" and "sixths is for doubles."

I don't want to keep beating a dead horse here, but the intro limits are confusing and are NOT always followed to the letter of the (agency) law. Equating that with the Eagle's Nest accident does not add any credibility to the case for keeping under or untrained people out of caves, keeping them from killing themselves, and keeping access open.

Other than that, I am all for giving Chris a break, and actually welcome his presence cave diving, especially if it will give him a realistic perspective on what the problems really are.

[Nitrogenius]

The Christmas tragedy at Eagle's Nest was not a case of some intro diver exceeding sixths or practicing a jump - it was the action of an idiot akin to someone jumping off the Empire State Building thinking they could fly.

Well I tend to disagree a bit. You don't know what you don't know. As it had been discussed in that other thread as well. He had been told that he should not do it but reading through it seems he had never been told really why he should not do it other than he shouldn't for not being trained and potentially getting killed one day.
My take is, this is not enough. Because people try, get away with it a while and thus figure that it all might just be a big fuzz..
When talking to people explain them what the real dangers are. Ask questions what they would do in this and that situation and how they would solve it.. Then let them know that is the training they need in order to know the proper action..

But that is a bit Off topic.
Obviously what the reanger is saying is all very valid. Just one thing does not make too much sense to me: The traverse. I do see no reason why an Intro diver should not be able to do a SIMPLE traverse. This is all within the limits of the training you just exit at another point. (assuming of course you do not pass navigational points)..

[Bobby]

Welcome Chris and good post.

Seems that a real subject is getting derailed by details that really are not the point. Chris is right and there are a lot of over head trained divers doing dives well beyond their training and/or experience. At least bringing it out on boards is a start towards helping stop the problem. I have seen far too many times divers doing dives that they don't have the training/experience for. When the situation is right I have made efforts to help them understand the risks.

I have told this story before however maybe it warrants being told again. I was at EN preparing for a dive when two divers came in and started setting up. Through casual conversation and paying attention to what and how they were doing things it became clear that they did not have the training/experience for the dive they were about to do. After talking with them a good bit I offered to buy them lunch and further the conversation which they took me up on. Scrubbing the dive was well worth it when the possibility of keeping them from becoming a statistic was in the balance. I will never know if they just went there another day however they seemed to get an understanding the risk they were actually undertaking.

There is no clear cut way to handle any situation and I have had others that have resulted in me being told to STFU & mind my own business which is exactly what I then did.

Hopefully Chris's post gets a few that are doing dives well beyond what they should to reflect and change what they are doing. A good friend did that for me a long time ago. If he had not I most likely would have become one of the statistics. When he politely and compassionately let me know that I was diving well beyond my experience/training I took it to heart, stopped doing those dives, and sought out more training.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

[OFG-1]

Soooo, what I take away from this is that it is fine to do stupid things as long as you are not in the state park cave systems. Thanks ranger Chris for the advise, I will remember. Nick, did you hear that? We can only do stupid things while sneak diving on private property.

[Me]

If Chris is a ranger at Peacock, I hope he checks certs to drivers licenses to faces. I know of an OW diver that has been taken in the system several times by cavers and they just put several "certs" on the dashboard and the ranger doesn't bother to verify who they belong to.......

[FW]

If Chris is a ranger at Peacock, I hope he checks certs to drivers licenses to faces. I know of an OW diver that has been taken in the system several times by cavers and they just put several "certs" on the dashboard and the ranger doesn't bother to verify who they belong to.......

He is at Manatee, and they do compare ID to the divers.

[Me]

He is at Manatee, and they do compare ID to the divers.

They need to start doing so at Peacock....."hint hint".

[vicp]

If Chris is a ranger at Peacock, I hope he checks certs to drivers licenses to faces. I know of an OW diver that has been taken in the system several times by cavers and they just put several "certs" on the dashboard and the ranger doesn't bother to verify who they belong to.......

Maybe we also need x-ray machines and body scanners (along with armed guards) - but hey, why stop there? As long as we are at it - let's add fingerprinting, background checks, credit reports, retinal scans, security clearances and DNA samples!

[ams511]

The real question is why does the government find it necessary to close dive sites because of deaths? Certainly many more people die on the interstates and no one would seriously suggest closing them. Motorcyclists successfully lobbied not to wear helmets even though research has shown helmets reduce head trauma. How many lives have cigarettes cut short? The list goes on and on but yet for some reason diving gets singled out.

[MORGAN]

Because there are a lot of drivers, a lot of motorcyclists, and a lot of smokers. But very few cave divers. Plenty of people are willing to see other people's rights infringed upon as long as they themselves aren't affected.

Mike