A Common Dilemma

[Mark Vlahos]

Recently I was on an open water dive boat in a common vacation spot. Fortunately this particular day the boat was not crowded and all of the divers were experienced with the "newbie" having around 200 to 300 open water dives. One of the divers was an open water instructor.

After some pleasant conversation it was revealed that this instructor was planning a trip to cave country in the next few months. He began to press me for what caves he could dive. I did ask if he was cave trained and he said that he was not. I tried to redirect the conversation away from cave diving. He continued to boast that in Mexico he had done some guided cave dives. I did determine that these were not cavern tours, but actual cave penetrations. He was extremely casual that when he went to Florida he would just hire a guide, or choose public caves that would not check his certifications. He owns a set of doubles for wreck diving, but would likely fly to Florida with all of his gear minus tanks.

I tried my best to remain polite but stress how important cave training is. My assertions clearly fell on deaf ears. I felt that this was not a proper venue to press him too hard since this was a public open water dive boat hundreds or thousands of miles from the caves in Florida. If I came across him in Florida at a cave I would certainly have pressed harder. He even later talked about the Christmas accident at Eagles Nest and appeared to try to differentiate himself from the father in that accident. He indicated that his wreck diving experience, and experience in doubles set him apart from more common open water divers. His instructor experience gave him an edge on dealing with problems beyond untrained divers.

This is a common problem that we have all come across from time to time. If just got under my skin when he did not see that his lack of training put him in the exact same category as other cave accident victims. Hubris is a tough nut to crack.

Our conversation remained polite, but I eventually just gave up and would not engage in conversation with him.

Mark Vlahos

[nakatomi]

Our conversation remained polite, but I eventually just gave up and would not engage in conversation with him.

That is very sad to hear. I experienced much the same last year with a local diver. He was fairly new to the sport (<100 dives), very talented and extremely confident in his abilities. I talked and talked, he politely listened, and insisted that he was the big exception to the rule and needed no training for the overhead environment. I even sent him the youtube link to Lamar's great NSS-CDS safety video. Well, apparently this guys mind was dead set on not needing training and nothing could change it. Last I heard he did some overhead dives in Budapest (and lived) and is now planning to train for record deep Trimix dives with Mr. Bernabe. Well good luck with that...

[spelodiver]

Too bad he would not listen to you. I had an open water instructor once tell me because he was an instructor he didn't need to take the classes.


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[divebum10]

Wow! One of the things I keep telling my OW students is that I may be a recreational instructor, but I am still a student that continues to expand my diving knowledge.

[jmaddox]

I had a similar experience. A couple of weeks ago, my GF's OW instructor was telling me all about the caves she dove in MX and that she "even got to wear doubles in a cave that she probably wanst supposed to be in", but it was OK because she was with some hotshot cave diver friend of hers. After disclosing that I was a cave diver, the conversation ended after I told her to "do the recovery divers a favor and just take the classes". She didn't try to impress me with her cave diving chops after that.

Its sad really, these arent bad people, just misguided. Divebum10 has the correct attitude IMHO.

--jm

[JCGoodwin]

These individuals who think they are great wreck divers and know how to cave dive need to take a Cavern class to see what they don't know!
Yes you can run a reel but in a cave, with flow, with silt, in total darkness, etc. it gets incredibly complicated.
I have heard it before, "How hard can it be?" IT IS NOT HARD WHEN YOU ARE TRAINING FOR IT!
We know first hand what you do not know can kill you and even if you are proficient there are perfect storms of failures that can be fatal.

I started my cave training to be a better wreck diver.
I learned that running a reel is a very different animal in a cave.
I fell in love with the caves and the community.
When I started out many were eager to help assist me train, practice skills, and offer wise advice.
It was encouraging to me to witness the passion many in the community were happy to pass on to those who were seeking.
THANKS TO ALL WHO HAVE BEEN AND CONTINUE TO ENCOURAGE ME!

To your acquaintance on the boat I wish him luck.
Several of those who have given me similar attitudes I have arranged guides for them!
That is, the names and numbers of instructors who have been forewarned to give them yet another opportunity to do the right thing.
As a member abroad up north here I try my best to keep stirring the passion of caving but keep it tempered with the emphasis of disciplined training.
Many OW divers ask all the time why we dive with all that gear and run lines all over the quarries up here?
We always answer the same, "We are training for Cave Diving" they more than not ask more questions.
There are several more to our ranks that began from these humble starts.

In my honest opinion your average OW diver knows to seek training.
It is those who feel they have mastered skills and can apply them any environment those are the most dangerous.
The complacency that partners with arrogance will kill you faster than anything.
We always want to convey a attitude of a student, open to learn, train, constantly be humble, conservative, and not fool hardy!
Cave Diving like all Diving is meant to be fun and survival is paramount to enjoying it!

JCG

[Kelly Jessop]

One of the signs says," X# divers have died here,including instructors" . I think there is a reason they put this wording in there.

[MacLeod]

It's comical and also sad to read your post, Mark--as I had a very similar experience a few months ago. While visiting my LDS, one of their instructors was showing off some dive photos to a prospective open water student. As I was waiting to pay for my items, I overheard her mention her cave diving--and was showing pictures. I waited for her to finish her description of this particular dive--and entered the conversation. I started off with "It's nice to know there's another cave diver in the area. Did you do your cave training in FL or in Mexico?" The response was, "I'm not a cave diver. This was a guided cave dive." She insisted that since there was a guide there that was cave trained, that the dive was perfectly safe. I asked what she would have done if she had a problem with her gas supply on the dive (in the photos the divers were wearing single AL 80's)--she said that she had a AL 30 pony bottle. I then asked her what would happen if she "lost the line." Her response was that the guide was there. At this point I asked what happened if there was more than one diver with an issue, or if she lost contact with the guide (there were a total of 5 other divers with the guide). She also stated that if there was a problem, someone else would be there to help. I explained to her that the only rescue you can depend on in cave diving is self rescue. I then showed her my NSS-CDS "Recovery" card--and explained that there isn't a "rescue diver" in cave diving for a reason. At this point, I think it finally started to sink in. I explained that with proper cave training, you are taught to deal with any of these situations--and that these are skills that need to be learned and practiced. While I'm not certain if she was fully aware of the foolishness of this type of "guided dive", I can guarantee the prospective student in there would think twice before attempting one.

[MORGAN]

The complacency that partners with arrogance will kill you faster than anything.

Yup. It's amazing how a few people will rationalize that they are the exceptions to the rules. They'll come up with all kinds of reasons why they don't need training, to do something where all of the experienced participants insist that training is necessary. Humans are strange.

Even some who are willing to take training are a little scary. At a diving event in Massachusetts a few years ago I had a guy ask me to recommend a good cave diving instructor. Early in the conversation it became apparent that what he wanted was a guaranteed c-card. He said, "I don't want to go all the way to Florida and spend the time and money and come back without a card."

Mike

[allen]

The client on a guided dive (or a serious guided climb) must not be a passive passenger. The client must understand the situation to the point where he can read the cave and read his guide's mind.
Case in point: On the return leg of a dive in Ponderosa my guide went right where I remembered that the main tunnel back to the cenote went left. My first thought was, " I guess my memory is bad." A minute later I realized that my guide wanted to take me down a side tunnel to show me one last formation before returning to the cenote. I flashed him and pointed to my guage (just below thirds) and thumbed the dive. Because I was full cave trained, I had learned to pay attention at junctions. Because I had worked with 5 different instructors and 4 different guides I could guess what my guide was thinking.
Cave training is partly learning technique: how to grab the line when the light goes out, how to execute a lost line search, how to switch sides of the line in a LOAS exit. Cave training is also acquiring the mindset of a cave diver by working with instructors who have that mindset.