The biggest problem with a mentoring "network" is an attorney would be frothing at the mouth for an incident.... Sadly.
Mentoring DOES take place, but its usually through a guy who knows a guy type of thing... Like when I dive with brand new cavern divers...
Joe
Originally Posted by Richard Pyle
This is what makes all the difference.
Relying on agencies to pick up the slack is, in my opinion, a bit like passing the buck. A few new rules on a sheet of paper mean nothing without the feet on the ground to back it up - but my argument is why do we need that sheet of paper? Especially if the trend is for agencies to distance themselves from the very cadre that keeps them afloat, what's the point of the paper in the first place?
In addition to cave diving, I'm also a paintball enthusiast, long enough to have been around the block a time or ten. Having seen the sport implode on itself once already, I realize the value of new members and the life they breathe into the sport. I run interference between them and the "better than thou" egos, I take the time to show new players tips and tricks, I don't hesitate to let someone with a broken gun use my equipment to play while I sit out and repair it. The sacrifices I make are numerous, but necessary to perpetuate something that I love and cherish. There is no agency to say how things should be done, no training program to get people acquainted with the rules, the responsibility to show people the ropes falls on the players themselves...and sadly, there's not many who own up to that responsibility, but that goes for just about any activity.
Education is not something that has a formal structure, learning is not something that can be written and distributed on a sheet of paper. We all say the real learning starts after the class - but what about before it? Most new divers probably won't seek out new skills and techniques, so the onus is on us to seize the opportunity when we see that spark of curiosity, and not stifle it. No agency can tell you when that moment is, or how you should approach it - and they'll never be able to tell you, such is the beauty of being human. I'm not saying we should all be teaching cave diving courses, but I will say there's a wealth of knowledge in this community that seems to be kept under lock and cavern card, and I can't help but ask myself why that is.
How about an Angie's List for cave diving instruction?? In this way, prospective cave divers can gather the opinions and ratings from hundreds of others who may or may not have a clue as to whether the instruction they received was any good or not. Or a good value? Or did they really get any instruction, and just got on the list to have an opinion about something? Steve is proposing an accrediting committee or group that will pass judgment on an instructors fitness to teach cave diving. That is akin to a UL Underwriters scenario. What people fail to realize is that UL and it's tests and endorsements are for strictly for profit. Who and where are the Underwirters? The maker of the product has to pay to get it tested by UL and most likely pays for the continued endorsement. This increases the cost of the product and may or may not help with the marketing of said product. UL endorsements do not necessarily improve a product either.
How do we apply this to cave diving? Well lets say Joe Blow wants to learn to cave dive and he wants the best instruction he can find for his money. Since he doesn't know any cave divers yet he looks to the UL Approved Cave Diving Instructors website for guidance. All Joe really gleans from this is that his choice of instructor has been approved by somebody supposedly more in the know than he is. Joe is also going to pay a little more for his class, which also reinforces his belief that he is getting a quality education. Joe completes his course and continues to learn from others and dive more challenging locales. His UL instructor is proud of Joe and boasts to others that his newly minted cave divers have better trim, air consumption, and situational awareness in the water than many veterans ( I really did hear this from an instructor once) Joe meets many new friends and one day gets bent or toxed on a dive (doesn't matter how or where at this point) He calls DAN and gets all fixed up after a rather expensive helicopter ride and a few trips in the chamber. He gets home and wants to blame somebody for his misfortune, so he calls the ULACDI 800 number and leaves a message. He gets a call back and is told that the ULACDI only endorses the instructor and what takes place in the course, not thereafter. They also tell Joe that he should be more careful in the future and that if he wants some additional quality instruction he should look to their list of endorsed UL Approved Decompression and Mixed Gas Diving Instructors.
Not that I think any of what has been said for or against Steves idea isn't worth thinking about. But if I put two toasters on my counter, one from Walmart (China) and the other a UL approved GE and one day my house burns down while I was diving. I don't think I will get any more help from UL than I will from China to help me rebuild my house. I will just have to rely on insurance like Joe did.
P.S. There is a secret message here!!!
Trace,
Let me throw you a scenario and ask a few questions since you sit in the position you do? This is a Q&A so don't take it as a snide comment to your posts. I think your posts point to some relevant facts.
Let's say a person completes a intro cave class signs all necessary paperwork required by the agency and instructor. Especially the one called "statement of understanding" which contains language the student, now diver understands he/she is to dive within their limits and follow the rules of standards as taught, Now let's say the instructor went the extra mile and covered accident analysis and proper etiquette in cave diving such as following state park rules for access. This diver now has a intro card and within weeks pulls off a dive to 175 feet in a cave without deco training of any sorts. The student is suspended from further training for six months to allow time to reflect. However, the diver is left to dive because under current guidelines, there is no formal suspension for a certified diver (unless they are GUE, in which case the card belongs to GUE and possession of it is a privilege to be revoked at any time). Diver cools his or her heels and takes it easy,6 months passes and training is about to resume but diver gets caught up in a web of lies unrelated to diver with the instructor and instructor begins to see a trend bordering fraud if not actually in it. Instructor decides to discontinue all training with said student. Diver is still at this point free to dive as a certified diver because cards in possession. Instructor contacts agency rep high up the chain but not the top to recommend revocation. It is shot down instantly. Fast forward to 6 months later, diver suffers an unusual medical condition in which diver just up and loses control of the left side of the body. 2 weeks later diver is over at Peacock conducting a Grand Traverse dive. It is unknown if diver is full cave at this point but no evidence has been located proving otherwise. It should be mentioned that during earlier deep dive training, diver blacked out twice at 135' and 140' respectively just prior to the solo 175' dive conducted which led to suspension. Another call is made to certifying agency for possible revocation if full cave is not possessed by this diver. Again reminding you that the diver is diving under severe medical conditions (which should be a violation of the statement of understanding in itself).
Now the questions:
Did this student commit fraud to obtain her card? (Remember a statement was signed and is in the folder)
If yes then why is revocation not a solution?
Remember in Florida, you now have to sign a statement not to text while driving to obtain a drivers license. If you sign it and get caught later, they suspend your license.
Why is this not done in diving?
You mentioned accountability. I agree. However, accountability is a multi-tiered issue in need of a multi -tiered solution for resolution.
In this case, a student agrees to certain conditions which as a diver are violated. Suspension doesn't work so now what? Is the diver just written off until they kill themselves and all parties involved in the legal case, if it arises, can duke it out over who is at fault? Is this when and how we as a community need to decide who is accountable? How many suits have you heard of where an instructor is sued when a diver dies? How many have been tried even when the instructor wasn't onsite? At what point do instructors start passing the buck up the chain of command? After all if an instructor not onsite can be sued then surely an IT not on site can be and so on all the way to the top???
The point of my post is NOT to just save lives by making training follow the standards. It is to promote accountability. The same accountability you mention.
Now let's look at accountability. Surely as the International Training Director, you would expect the same amount of accountability of all certified instructors as I would instructors as an Instructor Trainer. Would you not? As an instructor, is there not the same expectation of accountability from the students?
The point is, accountability must be had at each level. I believe we all have this expectation and demand it with "statements of understanding." Please correct me if I am wrong?
Now to the real issue, how is accountability managed. I mean safely managed as to minimize the accidents and incidents like, two students being left in a cave for Edd to save, the case mentioned above, any one of the many other Edd cases where they were just OW divers, the instructor with his 10 year old son at Peacock or even the EN incident? Perhaps the answer to the latter is very hard to achieve but it is obtainable. The first examples in my opinion are best headed off by action. If in the first, the agency revoked the instructor, he would not be teaching, unless of course he runs to another agency because they take anyone as it brings in the cash flow. (This is where a universal standard for instructors throughout the agencies comes in). In the second, the next two cases, revocation of the divers cards makes it harder for them to dive doesn't it? If dive shops actually check certifications before filling tanks, it would be next to impossible for them to dive unless they bought their own compressors. In the last, it may fall under the middle cases as he had to get air somewhere. Without a card, under a stricter set of standards, he would not have gotten a fill. So as you can see, accountability is the exact reason we are falling apart. Responsibility in a sport that demands it is everyone's problem. Just look at the two deaths in Norway. Site closed. Is this what we are after here in the States?
Perhaps you and I should talk privately before cases actually start getting posted and classified information is made public. I believe we are after the same thing but with different approaches. Finding a solution is much easier when more get involved. After all, you are right, We can't guarantee the behavior of students after class`, but we can and should take away their ability to act. You are in a position of influence. Why not make PSAI the standard instead of following the example? Why not treat these violators like the selfish children they are? Imagine if all parents just threw in the towel and said "it's not my problem, little Joe must learn to be accountable on his own." Isn't accountability what a parent is supposed to teach? Isn't punishment the parents right should the child fail to learn? Isn't this exactly what you meant when you said personal accountability needs to be taught to our children? PSAI along with all other agencies are the parents by choice. They breed divers through training and make all the rules. Just like parents, they must make reprimands for wrong behavior. I think this is exactly what you meant by teaching our children accountability.
Oliver,
We have mentoring and have been pushing it for years. While it helps those willing to seek it out, it does nothing for the ones that are the problem. How do you propose to fix this?
IMO, doing what I suggest is a solution if implemented correctly. Divers are creatures of rewards. They thrive on it. Look at all the milestone awards given. It is our nature to strive for improvement. I see this in you. But like all other walks of life, we are not without our bad seeds. Controlling the bad seeds from propagating is the solution we need. Call it a weeding out of all invasive species if you will. Now take the fact divers and instructors now get another milestone award. How many won't accept the challenge is the question we need to focus on.
Complaints about physical fitness are popping up. Most likely by those not able to pass a simple elementary level fitness test. Did you know as a diver, you have to pass a fitness test? As an Instructor, you pass a more rigorous test. Why? Why do agencies see the need to conduct a fitness test once but not annually? Are divers somehow capable of maintaining a level of fitness for life? I beg to differ by a few of the folks I've seen. The point of the test is to make sure you can handle a student body in case of an emergency or for the diver, make sure you can actually swim to some degree. Now why isn't this just as important every year since fitness can change over time? The FAA requires it as do many police departments and fire departments. Fact is, we all may run into the need to save a life someday. How many will be able to physically get it done? Who wants to be the one who finds out the hard way who isn't capable? Why are instructors charged each year to renew but not check for fitness or compliance? Imagine if an agency actually figured out money could be made by conducting fitness tests. My bet is it would be implemented very quickly since most only tend to look at revenue stream. But then again, instructors are required to get a medical release from a doctor stating they are fit. Is this not passing the buck? Read it now, doctor sued by dead divers wife because instructor could not physically save them and doctor certified they could. Medical releases are just that a release of liability or accountability to a third party. While clever, it does little to protect our way of life.
Sorry for the extras in you reply. Isn't really directed at you but rather everyone to keep brainstorming. We are getting to the right solution.
This is essentially how the climbing community works. As I mentioned in another thread, the "certification" of non-professional individuals is only really useful when you go on vacation and want to dive with some company's tank or boat or in the case of north Florida, a cave on state or private land, as it provides the dive operator with a modicum of assurance that you at least met a minimum standard at one point in time. I was initially a bit offended when I was at a resort in Roatan where everyone, regardless of their "certification", had to assemble their own gear in front of the resort staff and then do a dive and demonstrate a partial mask flood, a regulator recovery and attain neutral buoyancy in front of the divemaster, until I saw the skills of those around me. Some of these "certified" divers were singled out for additional "attention". Additionally, I think the "certification" gives individuals a false sense of their own abilities when an instructor tells them that they are now qualified to do... (fill in the blank). I'm surprised more people just don't print out their own C-cards, since the "certification" has no legal standing and there are so many agencies that a dive operators could not remember what all the different cards look like, especially when they change designs every few years. In reality, anyone can start their own training agency and start handing out certifications, which is where the industry is right now, C-cards that are not worth the material they are printed on. So why have them?
In the climbing community you either start climbing with friends (mentors) who show you how it is done or take a local class and meet others at your skill level to learn with, by doing. Unlike SCUBA, you read books on the intricacies of climbing and then go practice them in a safe environment so you actually know what you should be doing, instead of reading the test questions in a SCUBA training manual and then skimming the text to find the answers and cramming to pass the written test before the class starts in a few hours.
The big difference is that the climbers that voluntarily seek out training, do so to improve their skills, while people who seek out dive training do so primarily because they are told they have to get "certified" to dive (read: check a box). If you can find a way to break that mentality, which has been engrained in divers since the first day of open water, then you stand a chance of making the situation better, but that likely won't be well received by those dive training agencies that make their living from checking boxes. Personally, I think "certification" is just a marketing tool to make people think they are receiving more value for the training they are paying for. Data has shown that even without a formal climbing "certification" there are fewer climbing deaths per capita then diving deaths and the insurance companies rate both with almost identical premium increases.
As for the Angie's list approach, many people do not know how good or bad their training was, because they have no reference for how they should be trained. For example, I know a cavern instructor that teaches the class in the Pacific ocean with no overhead and frequent surge that prevents doing some skills and his students think they received proper cavern training.
My suggestion would be an endorsement/accreditation (call it what you want so the lawyers don't froth) body that surveys students after training about the skills the instructor covered and rate each skill on how clearly it was covered in the class. The surveys would be collected in a file for each instructor and reviewed periodically to determine whether or not to continue endorsing that instructor. The cost would have to be passed onto each student through the instructor, who would likely charge a premium for having the endorsement. To become endorsed, the instructor could either pay for an evaluator to observe their training class and receive immediate endorsement, if found qualified or the instructor could participate in the survey program for a specified time period, without endorsement, until the surveys are collected, reviewed and found acceptable. There could also be a "continuing education" component that the instructor must complete periodically to maintain endorsement, like many professional organizations have and require a minimum number of classes taught annually to provide sufficient feedback. Ideally, it would be administered through an established, recognized and respected body that would make instructors more likely to participate and which would make it financially more viable at start-up. Finally, this body must have the integrity to stop endorsing an individual, regardless of the financial ramifications, if the student surveys show a decline in training or a serious incident displays a lack of good judgement on the behalf of the instructor. Additionally, this endorsing body could provide proactive feedback to the instructor if they see surveys reporting certain standard skills are not being covered in enough depth or clarity.
This surveying of students is similar to that of the ABET, that accredits university programs for engineering and sciences and surveys the students after graduation. It would not get rid of bad instructors, but it would make it easier for the uninformed students to choose an instructor who's students show they were trained to specific standards, consistently. Over time, the bad instructors will lose business to the endorsed instructors (weeded out) and you may even get the training agencies to require endorsement to maintain an active instructor rating, but don't hold your breath.
That is probably as much as you can ask for, since the for-profit training agencies are not going to voluntarily cut off an income stream from a bad instructor until they feel the liability outweighs the benefit and they see no chance of improvement. The idea of a SCUBA police that ensures everyone is physically fit and technically qualified before filling their tanks or letting them in the park is not realistic for numerous reason. You can't police natural selection.
Cheers,
Jon
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Steve,
I'm packing to go cave diving, but I might have the opportunity to reply to some of this on the board later. If not, I'd love to talk to you about it either in person, in PM, E-mail or on the phone. Thanks for starting an interesting topic and getting us all thinking.
Trace Malinowski
"Through all of my seasons and all of the reasons, I've stayed on this circuit for me." - Chris Ledoux
I love the mentoring idea. As a newly certified cavern diver, if some kind of program or how to go about getting in contact with a mentor was offered during instruction I would have def been interested. We want to be better divers, have gone through training but have no easy way of reaching out to get help with skills. Skills that can't be refined in a day or two of training. Practicing doesn't do me any good if I'm practicing wrong. There is most def a feeling of exclusion towards those of us that are new. And I want to be a cave diver. I must be crazy
Good cave divers who want to dive with newbies and help them develop are very easy to come by. This board is crawling with them. And if you live in NFL there are 2 or 3 hundred who are right there within an hour drive of you! Just ask. Ask here on the board. Ask at local dive sites. Ask at dive shops that cater to tech divers. We love to pay it back for the mentoring we have had!I love the mentoring idea. As a newly certified cavern diver, if some kind of program or how to go about getting in contact with a mentor was offered during instruction I would have def been interested. We want to be better divers, have gone through training but have no easy way of reaching out to get help with skills. Skills that can't be refined in a day or two of training. Practicing doesn't do me any good if I'm practicing wrong. There is most def a feeling of exclusion towards those of us that are new. And I want to be a cave diver. I must be crazy
WJH
Trace, Sounds good lets meet or talk on the phone. Just make sure you have an hour or two as I get long winded. I will be spawning this Saturday so will be stuck around the hatchery for a few weeks after that.
Star 1107,
There are mentors for you at every dive site out there. Like suggested, I would try to use this board but beware, you sometimes get a little more variance of answers then you may be looking for. Take it with a grain of salt. I can personally put you in contact with a few in your area or if you don't mind driving to Crawfordville, I will offer up myself. We have some very large caverns with a good selection of basins to refine and improve your skills. I highly recommend hitting many sites as they each present different environmental challenges. It is good to hear someone actually interested in improving themselves. Better to hear you want help as to not waste your time practicing wrong. Great attitude!!
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