Diver education safety organization

[Danseur]

I'm intrigued. I will be following this to see what ultimately comes of it, and this might be a very good idea, IF it's done well...

Is there help or input needed?

[JohnAd]

I am curious as to how you see this organization supervising the quality of instruction.

I ask from my perspective as a former school administrator. Although the process varies slightly from state to state, in the United States school teachers go through a rigorous training program before they can even think of getting a teaching job. Then they have to attain state certification, which requires a thorough review of their credentials and passing a qualifying examination. Then they have to get hired in a highly competitive market. Once hired, they are placed in a special mentoring program to make sure they are up to snuff within their district. During their first years of teaching, they are subjected to intense review while they are on probationary status. Once they are fully hired, they are required to be observed and evaluated by trained administrative staff regularly, usually every other year. They are also required to update their credentials and get further training throughout their careers so that they can renew their certification every 5 years or so.

I think that many people would agree with me that despite this very expensive effort to ensure quality instruction, there are more than a few very bad teachers out there.

So, how to you see yourself improving on the process used in public education, and how do you intend to pay for it?

[Captain Bil]

I know it's early, but the poll results thus far indicate that this has little chance of getting off of the ground. And it will probably remain that way as long as inquiries as to the mechanics of your proposal go unanswered. Here are a few more questions for you:

1. Who are the "several of us" referred to in the original post?
2. Who will head this "organization" and how will he be chosen? Other offices? Elections? Appointments? Dues?
3. Where will it headquartered and what if any infrastructure will be required?
4. Have the "several of us" reached out to other entities (i.e.; LDS, independent instructors, other agencies) yet, and if not when will you?
5. Who will construct the specifics of the organization? "Several of us"? If so, see question 1.
6. Will you solicit input from ordinary divers, not instructors or shop owners, and not folks who control access to caves? I mean regular folks who dive out of pure enjoyment, no gain expected other than the experience itself.

Notice I have not asked for any specifics as to organizational content, although that would be nice as well. Until you can provide at least a basic framework and intent, I will not support this idea. Even then, you'll need a more compelling argument to sway me. This sounds a little like "see something, say something" on steroids.

[nakatomi]

What Captain Bil said, those questions come to mind. There's way too little information at this point for me to like the concept.

[vicp]

I am curious as to how you see this organization supervising the quality of instruction.

I ask from my perspective as a former school administrator. Although the process varies slightly from state to state, in the United States school teachers go through a rigorous training program before they can even think of getting a teaching job. Then they have to attain state certification, which requires a thorough review of their credentials and passing a qualifying examination. Then they have to get hired in a highly competitive market. Once hired, they are placed in a special mentoring program to make sure they are up to snuff within their district. During their first years of teaching, they are subjected to intense review while they are on probationary status. Once they are fully hired, they are required to be observed and evaluated by trained administrative staff regularly, usually every other year. They are also required to update their credentials and get further training throughout their careers so that they can renew their certification every 5 years or so.

The process used in U.S. public school education is pure garbage! I say this as one who has had recent experience as a Florida certified teacher (and parent of two kids that went through the system). I also have been a university adjunct professor and have an extensive background in military training systems, flight instruction (including instructor trainer) and sports instruction. A recent survey (OECD, Dec. 2013) placed the U.S. public education 29th in Math, 22nd in Science, and 20th in reading worldwide.

I think that many people would agree with me that despite this very expensive effort to ensure quality instruction, there are more than a few very bad teachers out there.

The current system does nothing to insure quality teachers and education. It is highly political and overly convoluted under the pretense of doing something. It's goals are to manipulate short term statistics (test scores, pass/fail rates) to justify itself as relevant. None of this prepares the students for higher education (as I witnessed as an adjunct professor) and it also does considerable harm to teacher effectiveness and morale. Most long term teachers will tell you that the conditions they work under have gotten much worse in the recent era of so-called "accountability" (of incessant testing and evaluation of students and teachers both). Teachers, for the most part, are like most people in that they desire to get satisfaction from a job well done, especially as most are underpaid and overworked. There will always be "bad" teachers as there are bad doctors, lawyers, etc. What is unfortunate is that many "bad" teachers are really just representatives of a flawed and misguided, i.e., "bad" system.

So, how to you see yourself improving on the process used in public education, and how do you intend to pay for it?

The only way to improve on the current process used in public education with regards to any education, including diving (cave or otherwise), is not to use anything even remotely resembling it.

Shouldn't we work to have the existing organizations make this a priority rather then trying to create a new ad-hoc organization?

I completely agree. I believe it was proposed previously by cerich (Chris Richardson - HOG) that cave organizations such as NSS-CDS propose/develop training standards in lieu of certifying instructors and divers. This would be within their charter of "non-profit" education, exploration, and conservation. In my opinion, the certification of instructors and students should be left to the commercial "for-profit" training agencies (TDI, NAUI, etc.). Unfortunately, in my opinion, the NACD, at least in its recent iteration, is more of a training agency masquerading as a non-profit that exists as a shell for their instructors and only dabbles in cave conservancy.

IMO, we have no choice at this point. We must regulate ourselves for higher quality and let the one who fail to do it fade away.

Absolutely! Let the non-profit cave diving organization(s) set the standards. Let the for-profit training agencies address these standards, produce the instructors and train/certify the students, and let us "regulate ourselves for higher quality" by choosing the agencies, instructors, standards that we want to be trained under and "let the one(s) who fail [to meet those/our standards] fade away."

[speleodiver]

Answers to Questions:

Several of us are the Instructor Trainers, Instructors and a few divers who are more then fed up with the current situation.
By current situation please read the threads over cave damage, instructors who think breaking the rules at a state park are ok and the ones covering standard violations. All of which not one reprimand has been issued.

There will be no headquarter. It will be a committee which can handle meeting through many options available.
The committee will be seated by those interested in turning cave diving around. While this may sound like a play ball or leave the game, it is not. Any great effort has to have input from the opposition in order to be fair.
There will be no head person but a group effort besides someone to keep records and be the secretary. This person will head all meetings but not give input.

Anyone wishing to help develop the outline can email me at steve@caveconnectionsflorida.com. Any and all input is welcome and will be greatly appreciated. As the chair of the ASA, I can assure you the majority of people will voice their opinion but less than 1 percent of them will actually spend time to develop what has to happen. If you want to be involved here is your chance. If not keep sitting back and you can thank those of us who keep the access and conservation paramount in this sport. Without those two what kind of sport would we have if any at all?? Right now, we would like to have a representative teaching for each agency and several divers who can bring what needs to be improved from their point of view.

We are not a school district. Dive instructors get training and that's it. Where is the follow up monitoring, mentoring or reviews? They don't exist. We as a society demand it for our children through the age of 18 in most cases but yet when it comes to life in diving we seem to just not care. Is the magical age where society decides your life is worthless 18? Right now we are looking at annual reviews, physical fitness test that coincide with diving and heavy mentoring for instructors. Is there an instructor out there that feels this is too much? If so please come forward and tell us why you have no desire to be better and constantly improve or better yet tell us why second rate is good enough for you. I am an IT and I am continually learning. I learn from every student, instructor and even divers I meet. Life is a classroom. If you aren't learning try opening your eyes!

We are not trying to say the standards are lacking. The enforcement however, is nonexistent. This is where the ball has been fumbled. Until someone picks it up to run with it then we all are at jeopardy.

We are not trying to make training more accessible. With a dozen agencies I can think of off the top of my head, accessibility is not the issue. Education on why training is necessary may be but not access. Training with standards attached without enforcement is not what we need. If the agencies continue to refuse to enforce standards because they fear placing responsibility on themselves then we will have to do it as a community.

I may not be the popular person for seeing our lifestyle maintain itself but I certainly won't be crying on the couch one day when it all ceases to exist because we all sit back and let it happen.

It's time for a change. The time is now and it starts now.

Anyone wishing to help develop the plan can also call me at 940-735-1879. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts and receive any input I can to take to the table.

I am volunteering today for Keep Wakulla County Beautiful but will post the first draft of the outline we are refining over the next few weeks when I get home tonight.

Guys and Gals, I have done a lot of calling agencies on behalf of this community and can tell you the light is fading. The day will come when you as an instructor will have no protection from the very agency that certified you. For them to back you would mean they are responsible. They do not want the responsibility only the money. Lives just aren't worth risking the piggy bank. It's a sad situation. Who really wants to be the instructor that gets thrown under the bus by an agency that should have your back?? This isnt my problem, a LDS problem or even a diver problem. It is all of our problem. Either we fix it or we hang it up. We can not keep the path we are on!

[tursiops]

I am just not compelled -- in fact maybe a bit repelled -- by these Patrick Henry kinds of calls to action....you are with us or against us, our way or the highway, black and white, now or never, if you don't do this and somebody dies it is your fault, etc. Back off, tell me what you want to do, maybe I'll want to be supportive. Right now the only thing to be supportive of is some passion. That is never bad, but it is never enough.

[JohnAd]

The process used in U.S. public school education is pure garbage! ...
The current system does nothing to insure quality teachers and education. ...

The only way to improve on the current process used in public education with regards to any education, including diving (cave or otherwise), is not to use anything even remotely resembling it.

I'm glad to see you have a well thought out plan like this one. My original point was that the American system for maintaining quality instruction in its schools, with all its close checks and expensive processes, still leaves us with poor instructors. I asked how you would do a better job without all those resources, assuming you did not have a better plan. I see I was wrong. Now that I see the plan is "not to use anything even remotely resembling it" so that you can do a better job, I am ready to rush on board with this.

Or maybe not.

[Sly-vester]

I still fail to see how any of this will prevent the 95% of fatalities being untrained divers. Wouldn't making training more accessible open water divers, and overhead environments less accessible to open water divers do more to curb fatalities? I am not an instructor so I dont have that point of view. A prime example is Eagles Nest, there is no prohibition from open water divers diving the basin according to the management plan. There is big green sign warning not to dive there unless cave trained but that is just a recommendation. If an WFC officer would have pulled up on the father and son he could do nothing but make sure they payed the iron ranger, and didnt poach anything. In my opinion expecting open water divers to just stay in the basin is unrealistic.

[Captain Bil]

I guess I'm a little unclear as to whom this affects. Instructors only? Non instructor divers? If the former, I have no dog in this fight and will bow out (and don't kid yourself - it will be a fight). If the latter, then I guess I have to stay in this, as I anticipate another 20 years or so of a "diving life". Before I waste any more bandwidth, which is it?

In the meantime, I'm going diving.

Sent from behind a pint of Guinness.