I don't know twin, and don't care. If you can reasonably expect to perform a dive without it being a danger to yourself or the cave, then who cares? I came across a video of an excellent diver, scootering the Harper Tunnel. I was cringing at the #### he was on the trigger through. He pulled it off, and didn't seem to think twice about it. Obviously some people have the skills to safely take scooters where others have no business.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." --JFK
I think THIS is why so many people are against it. I've heard time and time again that taking in unskilled DPV divers into Twin is bad. I've heard inexperienced DPV divers in Twin is bad. DPVs in tight areas of Twin is bad. It seems to mostly stem from a class (maybe a few?) that did some pretty hefty damage to Twin using DPVs.Originally Posted by bamafan
Disclaimer: I don't have a scooter, never been on the trigger, and I have no plans for any such thing in the near future. However, I read a lot and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.
Let me see if I can summarize where this is going, for class and non-class dives. Maybe we can find something we all happen to agree on.
- (DPV) divers should dive within their skillset, so they cause neither damage to the cave, stir up silt or endanger themselves, their team or any third party
- (DPV) cave classes should be conducted in a an environment that ensures the student is unlikely to cause damage and does not stir up silt. If that can not be expected to happen in a certain cave, class should be held elsewhere. If in doubt, training in open water should be reasonanly safe
- Satefy and conservation of the environment have top priority, comfort/lazyness, goal objectives and other motives have to "get in line"
Any maybe we can leave classes aside and just figure out if, under the circumstances, scootering in Twin is ethically acceptable.
It doesn't count unless it's a Holiday Inn Express.
Whoever said money can't buy love never bought a puppy.
Yes, I know. That was my point.
Land of Enchantment -- not so great for cave diving, but mighty scenic!
If the first line item you list is met, then there is no ethical question to consider.
Joe
Well then, feel free to ignore all opinions I have, facts I post, and thoughts I come up with. Come to think of it, that's pretty much true no matter WHICH hotel I stayed in....It doesn't count unless it's a Holiday Inn Express.
This is where I simply don't have enough real-world experience to say much....regardless of what hotel I've stayed in. However, I can't see why your first point couldn't be the stipulation upon which "we" all agree.
The only problem I see with it is that most people that WILL do damage to Twin with a scooter think they won't do any damage....or they don't care if they do and will claim to be better, anyway. How do you determine who can and who can't? Do a DPV dive with Edd for him to "allow" it? DPV cert?
This is where current cavediving instruction has failed cave diving students.
It is easy for a well trained cave diver to do a self assessment prior to a dive and during a dive. The issue you are seeing and that many have seen in the caves is that many of the currently active divers in the gold line caves do not properly assess their skills and most think they are better in the water than they really are... and that their silt trail proves.
Joe
Seems most of this is relevant to cave diving in general, scooter or not.
When you're there you know there's a There there.
Jobst Brandt
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