Protecting the Privilege

[jj1987]

Intentionally blowing a cave or taking 4 into lower OG for a trimix class is not responsible.

Steve,

I've heard it second or third hand a few times that Rob took a class of 4 into lower OG and I assume this is what you're referencing. Did you report this so that the agencies had a fair chance to investigate it? If not, then what can the agencies do without a formal complaint?

[speleodiver]

James,

Contact the NSS-CDS. I'm Sure the complaint is public record. Unless of course it has been buried or lost so as to not have to be dealt with. I'm just fed up with the lack of accountability these agencies push when they get drug into nasty situations. The good news is most of them won't survive much longer. We are in a new era of lawsuit profitability. As soon as the benefit no longer out weighs the consequences then they will close down. WOW. What a concept. The benefit no longer out weighing the consequence. Now if only agencies were ran by that concept. Simple fact is there are too many instructor that get away with infractions which that now have become standards violations and soon just out right unnecessary and untimely deaths.

I had a rather interesting phone conversation with a young man at TDI HQ today. When questioned about the agency policy on instructors convicted of felony charges, he didn't seem to interested or worried they had one issuing cards. So I kindly informed him a new website was in creation where crap like this would be posted. If these agencies will not afford innocent students protection from people who refuse to be trustworthy and accountable then they will just have to have it posted so at least unsuspecting people have a fair chance and just maybe the cave community will save its self before another set of students get left in a cave and Edd isn't around. Or even worse some violating instructor runs out of luck when your loved one is under their instruction. Perhaps all those hiding on complaints and known violation standards should wake up before their name is posted as well. Yes, I will be the bad guy since the ones who should be accountable refuse to be. Anyone else interested in joining me to protect our sport feel free to Pm or email me. We are thinking the organization will be Florida Association of Cave Training and Standards because it is way past time for the FACTS to get straight.

[pocky]

If you follow the forums,there is a lot of discussion,and many of these discussions are confusing. I am not opposed to the forums,sometimes they provide valuable cave diving information,but for the most part they entertain and provide a social outlet. Yes,there is some real work underway to address the Eagles Nest issues,and while things are being hashed out,you won't see those parties discuss it on the internet. The effort to get Eagles Nest open in the beginning was a long process,and those people didn't enlighten the forums as each process occurred,but announced the end result. From my personal experience,discussing too much activity about a site opening or issues can derail the effort. For example,Jug Hole was closed for many years to cave diving because of concern for the natural plant species in the basin. I initiated the process to get it reopened,but I made the mistake to mention it on the forums that it was a work in progress. The park manager got so many phone calls about when it would be open,and some in a very demanding tone,he got upset,and it just slowed the process down. Lesson learned,so when I made the effort to get Lafayette Blue to allow cave diving access from the park,and started the discussion,I kept it quiet,and off the forums,then when it was official I announced it. There are some good people behind the scenes that work to maintain access at sites,and maintain relations,but they don't use the forums,and most fly under the radar screen,so if people are clueless,the answers won't be found here,just the end results.

Kelly,

This is the kind of action I wish to associate with in this community. As I'm fairly new and not well acquainted, I don't have many contacts, leaving only the forums as a means to connect with fellow cave divers. This community does have a certain enthusiasm that is incredibly unique, but I can certainly see it getting in the way of progress when everyone wants to get involved.

For that reason, I understand that many things be kept from the community at large. However, if the opportunity should arise, I would like to see how such relations are handled from a professional standpoint.

[Kelly Jessop]

Kelly,

This is the kind of action I wish to associate with in this community. As I'm fairly new and not well acquainted, I don't have many contacts, leaving only the forums as a means to connect with fellow cave divers. This community does have a certain enthusiasm that is incredibly unique, but I can certainly see it getting in the way of progress when everyone wants to get involved.

For that reason, I understand that many things be kept from the community at large. However, if the opportunity should arise, I would like to see how such relations are handled from a professional standpoint.

There are many opportunities to get involved in many of the processes that make up cave diving,and any of the agencies would appreciate the help-new or veteran. Sometimes it is a pity that people want to label the agencies "cave politics",throw their hands up and walk away. Yeah,people have disagreements,but the cliché of cave politics,which is there is a small extent,is really made into a major extent by the forums and picnic table pontificators. Things are accomplished,and we benefit from it,even though there isn't someone always publicizing what occurred. People who try to handle land owner relations don't want to deal with the forums,because everything you say will be discected,and over analyzed. I like the forums,they are a great source of interaction,but they aren't the source of information,as I said,so many people intentionally stay away.

[JohnAd]

I agree. Complete disregard has run a muck. So who will take the first step? The thousands of divers who are trying to enjoy this sport or the few agencies who hand out the abilities for these divers to participate in the sport. I would rather convince a few then try to sway a few thousand. PADI was in a suit over an instructor who wrongfully neglected his duties and responsibilities by pushing the envelope of standards. They went to court with their high power lawyers with the argument they were innocent and had no legal responsibility to the students. The jury certainly informed PADI otherwise with a 2 million dollar judgment. Personally, from a legal stand point this case is very dangerous. Yes it places the agency at partial risk because without the certification card, the instructor would not have had the ability to be in a position to act as he did. On the other hand, it could very well build case precedent for any agency issuing a license as a privilege to fall victim to the same judgment for failing to act as a reasonable and prudent person would.

Your example may well work against your argument.

Let's begin by pointing out that agencies like PADI do act when they learn that the instructors they certify screwed up. About a year and a half ago an OW instructor in Virginia was leading a group of OW students on their dive in limited but not too bad visibility and lost track of a student. She separated from the group and died. It took about a week before he was expelled from PADI. Go to the PADI web site and you can find the entire list of instructors who have been expelled or otherwise disciplined. Other agencies do the same.

The problem is that it can only do that sort of thing after something has happened. It does not actively supervise instructors at work. It does not pay them. I does not set their work schedules. Instructors are either working for a dive operation or acting independently. They do not work for the agency.

In the lawsuit they lost, the jury disagreed. So what was PADI's response? They have put out reminders to all shops and instructors that emphasizes that they are not a supervising agency. They have added that language to their documents so a student signs off on an understanding that the instructor does not work for PADI before taking the class.

I think that is a perfectly understandable reaction, and it points to the next possible step in saving themselves from a lawsuit: stop disciplining instructors altogether. The fact that PADI sends out QA questionnaires to students following certifications and then follows up after a student indicates that standards were not properly followed suggests that they ARE in a supervisory relationship with instructors and are thus liable for their actions. In the world of education, we have teachers screwing up all the time. When they do, the college that trained them does not revoke their diploma. That college clearly has no supervisory function. It is the school district in which the teacher worked who would get sued when that happens, because they are the ones in a supervisory role. The reason you never hear about that is because the threat of that is so real that governments have passed laws limiting their liability.

The cost of actively supervising all instructors would be so enormous that no agency can do it, so the threat of a lawsuit is actually liable to create LESS supervision, not more.

[Kelly Jessop]

John,I can appreciate what you are saying,but why do so many agencies when there is a gross violation of standards,or something that can impair that person's ability to teach,still allowed them to issue c-cards from that agency? or they are expelled,but other agencies allow c-cards to be issued from them?

[JohnAd]

John,I can appreciate what you are saying,but why do so many agencies when there is a gross violation of standards,or something that can impair that person's ability to teach,still allowed them to issue c-cards from that agency? or they are expelled,but other agencies allow c-cards to be issued from them?

I can speak for PADI and tell you that when an instructor is expelled or suspended, they cannot issue certifications from PADI.

I assume you have examples in mind that seem to contradict that, and since I don't know what they are, I can only guess that there must be a misunderstanding somewhere. Many people are certified by multiple agencies, and I assume it is possible for someone to be expelled from one agency but not another. I am certified to instruct for both PADI and TDI, so I suppose it is possible for PADI to expel me for reasons TDI would not even know about.

I have also heard of people who have been expelled and continued to teach under the name of the agency and without granting the actual C-Card--which is fraud. There was such a case with PADI I heard about a few years ago. The guy disappeared with some cash before people wondering why they weren't getting their cards complained.

[JohnAd]

Just as an example of what would happen...

A few years ago the credit card I had on file for automatic renewal with PADI expired, and when PADI sent me an email to tell me, they had the address wrong. They sent me a renewal letter, which I foolishly did not read well and assumed was a mistake because I was on automatic renewal. I found out when the certifications I issued were rejected.

[Kelly Jessop]

I can speak for PADI and tell you that when an instructor is expelled or suspended, they cannot issue certifications from PADI.

.

You are right,when I had teaching credentials with PADI,they would include the list of who was expelled or or suspended in every issue of the journal. I recall an instructor that got expelled by PADI,and a rightly so,so quite simply they moved over to their NAUI cert,and if that didn't work they had an IDEA instructor card. In the tech world of instruction I think the same issues exist. There is a lot of heresy and second hand information,with somewhere the balance of the truth really exists. So here is a hypothetical question. If an instructor failed a drug screen,and agency xyz suspended them pending investigation and procedure for reinstatement,shouldn't agency abc take steps to investigate and suspending teaching credentials during this time?

[Ken Hill]

Kelly, John,

What can be said of this is that speculation based on hearsay does not further any case we make to gain or retain access. In any tort case there has to be a party that was harmed and someone with legal standing to bring the case before an appropriate court. Aside from a court action. no agency should act on anything based on hearsay, rumor or innuendo if the instructor provides a credible reply and reasonable explanation of the alleged events.

The threshold for the standard of care and making sure the student knows and understands the inherent risks of diving is higher at the beginner level. Simply put its reasonable for the instructor to have beginners practice mask clears in a pool and for cave instructors to perform lost line drills in "0" vis.

In no case does unsubstantiated claims (whether having some merit or not) help gain or retain site access!