Do You Analyze Your Gas for CO?

[MichaelAngelo]

Said the artist to the math professor. Would you really like to compare algorithms? I'm sure mine is bigger........

Ohh then you know why assumptions are dangerous when your life depends on it.

[MichaelAngelo]

Said the artist to the math professor. Would you really like to compare algorithms? I'm sure mine is bigger........

Oh your a math professor. I am sorry your right I'm just a poor dumb artist trying to make his way in a world that obviously too complicated for him. I mean I actually have to open the valve of the tank and put a pressure gauge on it to know the psi in it and would you believe I actually have to again open the tank and put gas analyzers on it to know what's in it. Look again I'm just a guy from the neighborhood a regular Joe, who piddles around with paint, how do you know what's in a tank without opening it and finding out. Can you type slow so I can understand it.

[MORGAN]

And you thought building a ship in a bottle was hard.

Do you know the physics trick of sucking a hard boiled egg into a milk bottle? That's how I envision you getting the cat in there...

[MichaelAngelo]

Do you know the physics trick of sucking a hard boiled egg into a milk bottle? That's how I envision you getting the cat in there...

I, Sir, am no cat sucker.

[MORGAN]

I, Sir, am no cat sucker.

I just choked on my iced tea and nearly sprayed the keyboard with it!

I never meant to imply that your relationship with cats would be anything but proper, decorous, and gentlemanly.

Mike

[kwinter]

MA - I don't know what your problem with me is. I was just trying to keep it light and somehow you got a bug up your ass.

Your math is flawed. I say this because you can not know the Psi, Bar, Ata, Ppm, Particial Pressures, identities of any of the gas or if the cat living inside is alive or dead until you open the tank and analyze the contents. When you come down to it that's the real point.

There is a big difference between guessing and approximating or rounding. Partial pressure equals fraction times total pressure. I don't care if you put an analyzer with a gauge on the tank and open the valve. If you find that the tank has air and is filled to 200 atm (approx the same as 200 bar and close enough to 3000 psi to not warrant being called a guess) then the pO2 inside the tank is 42.21 whether the valve is open or closed or there is a cat inside.

And the difference in affinity that hemoglobin has for CO over O2 does not change with depth. At every depth, the ratio of O2 molecules to CO molecules is exactly the same. Carboxyhemoglobin is not more or less likely to be replaced by oxyhemoglobin based solely on depth.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

[MichaelAngelo]

I never said the amount of hemoglobin in the blood changed with depth, in fact I said it didn't I also never said that CO adhesion to hemoglobin changed with depth it doesn't it is 200% more adhesive to hemoglobin then O2 at any depth. The PPO of o2 and co does increase with depth the fact that the ratio is the same doesn't matter because the hemoglobin with adhere the CO first before it adheres to the O2 at all. Same amount of hemoglobin in the blood twice the Co means more of the hemoglobin infected. The Co will be attached to that hemoglobin forever it will not become less as you ascent no amount of O2 will removed the Co from the hemoglobin. All of which you agreed with. All you disagreed with is the PPO in a closed tank. You punched in numbers based on assumptions of psi and contains. When I questioned those assumptions you defended them saying I was an artist you were a Math Teacher and the great size of your theoretical penis. And that is arrogant and insulting. I maintain that for the purposes of scuba any statement on a tanks contains or pressure made without opening that tank and analyzing the contains are assumptions no matter what your job title.

[MichaelAngelo]

I just choked on my iced tea and nearly sprayed the keyboard with it!

I never meant to imply that your relationship with cats would be anything but proper, decorous, and gentlemanly.

Mike

I am more worried about getting a hairball then ruining my feline relationships <wink>

[kwinter]

I never said the amount of hemoglobin in the blood changed with depth, in fact I said it didn't.

I never said it did, and I never said that you said that either.

I also never said that CO adhesion to hemoglobin changed with depth it doesn't it is 200% more adhesive to hemoglobin then O2 at any depth.

Then let's be precise here. You are completely incorrect. Hemoglobin's preferential affinity for CO is 250 times greater than for O2. That is not 200% more, it is 25,000% more.

The PPO of o2 and co does increase with depth the fact that the ratio is the same doesn't matter because the hemoglobin with adhere the CO first before it adheres to the O2 at all. Same amount of hemoglobin in the blood twice the Co means more of the hemoglobin infected.

Ignoring the incorrect use of the term "infected," we agree.

The Co will be attached to that hemoglobin forever it will not become less as you ascent no amount of O2 will removed the Co from the hemoglobin. All of which you agreed with.

I absolutely do NOT agree with this. If what you wrote was true, there would be no treatment for CO poisoning. The carboxyhemoglobin will release its CO and take on O2 when the preferential affinity for CO is overcome by the relative amount of O2. In other words, high concentration or hyperbaric O2 is the treatment for CO poisoning. Now if you want to say that the CO will stay attached as long as the gas mix doesn't change, I will agree with that. But "no amount of O2 will remove the CO" is absolutely incorrect.

All you disagreed with is the PPO in a closed tank. You punched in numbers based on assumptions of psi and contains. When I questioned those assumptions you defended them saying I was an artist you were a Math Teacher and the great size of your theoretical penis. And that is arrogant and insulting. I maintain that for the purposes of scuba any statement on a tanks contains or pressure made without opening that tank and analyzing the contains are assumptions no matter what your job title.

I created a scenario in my post and wrote "Air in a full aluminum 80 at 3000 psi (approx 200 bar or 201 ATA) has a pO2 of 42.21." That is a calculated fact based on the premise of the statement. The scenario I created was a tank of air. No need to analyze it again. The scenario I created was at 201 ATA. No need to check pressure again. I was merely correcting your post where you stated that "You have a tank of air at sea level. The percentage of O2 in that tank is 21%, the PPO is .21 ATA. Take that tank to 33 ft. The % is still 21% the PPO in the tank is still .21." Unless the tank was empty (meaning at ambient pressure), then your statement was not correct. The contents of a tank under pressure has different partial pressures than the same gas when not pressurized. If that tank of air had a pressure of only 15 psi above ambient pressure, the pO2 inside the tank would still be higher than 0.21. It would be 0.42 and drop gradually to 0.21 as you open the valve and drain the tank.

And for you to be insulted by my comments about artists that were not derogatory at all flies in the face of your slur that I don't know the difference between math and guessing. Maybe I was correct that you were exhibiting signs of inadequacy in other ways.

I'm signing off now since I have no desire to debate the issue further.

[MichaelAngelo]

"Then let's be precise here. You are completely incorrect. Hemoglobin's preferential affinity for CO is 250 times greater than for O2. That is not 200% more, it is 25,000% more."

To be precise it's 200 to 250 times greater infinity depending on which article or resource you quote, but really again 200 times more or 250 times more, for purpose of cave diving does that matter that much. Again hemoglobin likes CO a lot more than O2.

Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo
“The Co will be attached to that hemoglobin forever it will not become less as you ascent no amount of O2 will removed the Co from the hemoglobin. All of which you agreed with.”

"I absolutely do NOT agree with this. If what you wrote was true, there would be no treatment for CO poisoning. The carboxyhemoglobin will release its CO and take on O2 when the preferential affinity for CO is overcome by the relative amount of O2. In other words, high concentration or hyperbaric O2 is the treatment for CO poisoning. Now if you want to say that the CO will stay attached as long as the gas mix doesn't change, I will agree with that. But "no amount of O2 will remove the CO" is absolutely incorrect."

You are wrong according to every article and medical professional I have researched, the treatment for CO poisoning is pure O2 preferable Hyperbaric , however it does not remove Co from hemoglobin but rather saturates the remaining hemoglobin (if any) with O2 allowing the system to replace the damage hemoglobin. The real question is will you live long enough for your body to replace the hemoglobin. So analyze your gas before you dive it. Even if pure O2 in a chamber does remove Co from your hemoglobin it’s still a better idea to analyze your gas before the dive and prevent the need for a chamber ride. Really much better odds of survival

"I created a scenario in my post and wrote "Air in a full aluminum 80 at 3000 psi (approx 200 bar or 201 ATA) has a pO2 of 42.21." That is a calculated fact based on the premise of the statement. The scenario I created was a tank of air. No need to analyze it again. The scenario I created was at 201 ATA. No need to check pressure again. I was merely correcting your post where you stated that "You have a tank of air at sea level. The percentage of O2 in that tank is 21%, the PPO is .21 ATA. Take that tank to 33 ft. The % is still 21% the PPO in the tank is still .21." Unless the tank was empty (meaning at ambient pressure), then your statement was not correct. The contents of a tank under pressure has different partial pressures than the same gas when not pressurized. If that tank of air had a pressure of only 15 psi above ambient pressure, the pO2 inside the tank would still be higher than 0.21. It would be 0.42 and drop gradually to 0.21 as you open the valve and drain the tank."

You created a scenario. That's my point, you had the answer you wanted then punched in the numbers to get that answer. Again, it's beside the point because for the purposes of diving it doesn’t matter, because you cannot know what in a scuba tank unless you open it and analyze it, so analyze your damn gas never assume what’s in a scuba tank ever. When you assume what’s in a scuba tank or make a scenario on what’s in a scuba you don't really know what’s in that tank. It's a maybe, most likely, can be but it’s not It is. Good lord man just analyze it and know.

“And for you to be insulted by my comments about artists that were not derogatory at all flies in the face of your slur that I don't know the difference between math and guessing. Maybe I was correct that you were exhibiting signs of inadequacy in other ways.”

Actually your comment was that for an artist I can't think abstractly. Actually I'm more of a neo-expressionist but assume away about my art too. Then I replied your basing your math on guessing. You made a snide remark I used my vast talents of satire. As per any inadequacies, just ask the cat

Lastly I won’t give it a rest. We keep telling divers to analyze their gas completely (O2, He, Co) and divers keep dying because they assume the gas in their tank is correct. I keep hearing that the station is good, the shop too good, oh I know the guy but that doesn’t matter you don’t know till you analyze each tank every dive. I will keep talking about, I will keep handing my analyzers to divers at dive sites to use, I don’t care how much I repeat myself. It's just too important. Artists are like that