Just out of curiosity as I have never heard and was not diving back in the day did GI3 ever get sued for any of his posts? Now there were some really good ones that he posted. If he was not held liable then I definitely don't see anything here that is nearly as bad as his old posts. The way he went after Bill Rennaker and others is totally out of control and down right nasty.
That's back when free speech was still legal.Originally Posted by bamafan
Joe
Regarding NAUI and the age limit, which is 18 at the time of the first cavern training dive.... I don't see anything that says the 10 year old (or 9 year old) was NAUI cavern or even an implied statement. He may very well be cavern trained with a different agency. I also do not see the reasoning behind contacting NAUI since this is obviously not a training issue - regarding NAUI classes. And this idea of a lawsuit? Hearsay, I say! Funny, how once someone says they think they heard.... people suddenly act like it's a fact.
I've taught 10-year olds to dive, OW, NAUI. I've also refused to teach 10-year olds to dive. I did not allow my daughter to learn until she was 14 and had snorkeled since she was 7, accompanied her mother and me on many dive trips - bubble watcher, gear go getter, etc. By the time she took the class, she was practically teaching it. I think she knew how to work the dive tables before she had memorized the multiplication tables. Was she mature enough? Probably. Was she capable physically and mentally? Probably. But I just could not see her fulfilling the buddy role in a high-stress situation in way that would have a favorable outcome. For her. I thought if her buddy died or was injured (me or her mother most likely to be her buddy), then the mental anguish on her would be more than diving was worth.
I suspect too often we look at the ability of young people in terms of what they can and cannot do and forget how they might handle the emotional side of a dive gone bad. It's one thing to be a parent and have a child die, it's quite another to be a child and have a parent die because of what you did or did not do and even if not your fault, what child can truly feel blameless?
The age to begin any diving OW to full cave is up to the parents, the child, and the potential instructor (and the agency regs of course). There is no magic number at which they are now capable - well, maybe there is, but it's not the same number for everyone.
skip (old bald ear-hair white guy wondering where all that testosterone went)
"Learning the techniques of others does not interfere with the discovery of techniques of one's own." B.F. Skinner, 1970.
I'm guessing he never got sued because everyone knew what a sad and pathetic person he was - what would be the point?
Whoever said money can't buy love never bought a puppy.
I suspect he had good lawyers too…..
Dive safe,
Celia
"Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others."
...Buddha
''Life's tough, pilgrim, and it’s even tougher if you're stupid.''
- John Wayne
Skip, it's a free country and for the most part people can do what they want. This guy is free to teach his son to dive at whatever age he chooses and wherever he chooses as long as he's not breaking the rules at that location or running afoul of child endangerment laws, which would be pretty tough considering the array of extreme sports in which kids participate. That being said, as a NAUI instructor he has an obligation to adhere to their training standards when teaching diving. It's pretty clear from this guy's response, and the fact that no one can think of any agency that allows cavern training at that age, that his son was not cavern certified. As such, this was by definition a training dive and it clearly violated NAUI training standards and park rules. He admitted as much in his response. NAUI has an obligation to police its own instructor corps and deal with training violations in an appropriate manner.
10,000,000% agree!!
There are very large differences between children in the 11-13 age bracket. I can give you a tale of two children 6months apart in birth Light Years apart in maturity. One is my Jr OW certified 11 almost 12 year old. She was ready to be certified at 11 does well in all the skills, We hope to dive much more this year than last. The other Child 6 months older I would not even think of letting him use a regulator in a 8 foot deep pool.
I'm not seeing what you're seeing. I see nothing that says he was teaching his son under the auspices of NAUI, or any other agency. In fact, I thought he specifically avoided saying teaching or training. However, it may be that he is an instructor for many agencies, overseas perhaps too, so any assessment from posts regarding agency rules those on the forum can think of. I only saw rules for NACD, NSS/CDS and NAUI posted.
And 3 years means the boy started at 7, or if as some say the boy is 8 or 9, then younger.
"My boy, who is 10, has been under my direction for MORE than 3 years now starting in basic O/W, Adv O/W in many different caverns with me, and yes, he's better than most. He's extremely bright, and has a love for cavern and ocean diving."
Park rules are park rules and that's between the rule-breaker and the ranger. Now if some think acting the snitch and calling the ranger to report suspected violation is a citizen's right or duty, well so be it. But to get up in someone's face at the dive site is not the same at all and then for posters on CDF to make up so much with so little factual information is very creative.
As for child endangerment, that's a real can of worms. A friend's 2 year old pulled the table cloth and spilled hot coffee on her shoulder and arm. They took her to the emergency room. First Degree burns, but no blisters - red and a general swelling. A tylenol and the kid was playing normally. ER "had" to report it to DCS who "had" to come do a home assessment based on potential child endangerment, maybe abuse even. Great people, great kid, and they have no idea what official report will be and have to allow DCS to come back into their home in 6 months for a follow up visit.
I don't think NAUI is relevant here; report what you saw to DCS. I can imagine a social worker getting wind of a 10-year old diving in caves with Dad's aid might indeed remove the kid from cave diving and from dad and mom as well! Especially if you include training requirements, age limits, etc.
How far does on see something? And upon seeing how far does one go in saying something?
skip
"Learning the techniques of others does not interfere with the discovery of techniques of one's own." B.F. Skinner, 1970.
How can it be a training dive if the kid doesn't meet the prereqs (age) to take the class? It might have been training for something other than cavern, but not for cavern. Thus, Peacock was off limits, and the cavern at OG was off limits.
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