Statement from the Chairman regarding the Eagles Nest incident.

[shellmoundal]

I read the entire thread and after reading it I am convinced of one thing, "Open Water lectures don't push the fact that divers should never dive above their training level". When I got my drivers license in Atlanta Ga. back in 1962, I was shown fatal accidents of untrained or foolish drivers. The vision stuck in my mind, and still does, that made me a more careful and aware driver.
My suggestion would be to have an experienced cave or technical diver show and do a demonstration of foolish diving decisions. After hearing all the BS we hear in our cavern classes of divers who have died due to bad decisions and diving above their training level, we start to get an understanding of the seriousness of overhead environment diving. Why can't the OW Instruction Lecture include an intro to that. We could possibly stop the stupid antidotes of untrained divers in overhead environments. A body bag being dragged through a cave toward the exit would indeed make an impression on a new scuba diver. A video like that along with our warning signs we put in the entrance of caves could possibly stop an untrained diver from entering. An example is Catfish Hotel. An OW Diver can swim to the cave entrance with no problem. After seeing a video of a body bag being dragged out of a cave, a lecture of diving over your training level, and seeing the Warning Sign in front of him, I feel he would take a second to reflect on what he was about to do.
This 5 minutes it would take to incorporate this with OW Lecture could save a life.
We push all through our cave instruction of diving over our level of training. OW divers think that a C Card gives them the right to dive anywhere other than diving over 60 ft. deep. Florida has many springs that have caves with easy access. We need to educate our new OW Divers of the danger of Overhead Environments.
Just my thoughts on the subject. I am sure it is full of holes but I am sick and tired of having to educate OW Divers about OH Environments at dive sites. After talking to them and showing them all the cave equipment and why we use it, they all thank me for the lesson.
Go ahead OW Instructors and tare this up.

[JE]

well written Mr. Chairman ! Thank you.

je

[BobK]

To those of you proposing we stop all divers from doing things we deem unwise, do you also call the highway patrol on every driver you see exceeding the speed limit? On the phone while driving? Driving after a drink? They're not just risking themselves.

I hate what deaths in caves do to access issues. I hate the thought of Big Brother more, though. Address the cave access issues, and leave people to their right to behave in a way that you think is stupid as long as it's not putting you in danger. I have had SEVERAL talks with divers about to do something I didn't think was smart. Sometimes those talks even worked. However, in the end, in the case of an adult, it is their right to do something I don't think is safe for them.

And please, don't use the "a stupid diver in the cave risks the lives of the rescuers." Seriously, our rescue teams are amazing people. They CHOOSE what dives to make to do those rescues, and I grant that they are intelligent enough to decide on what risks they're willing to take at any given time.

What gives us the right to decide that someone isn't able to make a dive (or a climb or a jump or use a butter knife) because we don't think they're doing it the safest way? Allow that logic, and next we have people who say because cave diving (or climbing rocks, etc) is dangerous sounding TO THEM, then WE shouldn't be allowed to do it. Or because I'm overweight, I shouldn't be allowed in a cave. Or any other of a number of reasons.

Where would our sport be without people who did things they weren't trained for?

It sucks when someone dies and it seems so preventable. But let's not kill a fly with a sledgehammer, and end up caving in the skull of the friend the fly is sitting on.

This.

[Ken Hill]

Shirley,

I don't know what comment "this" was intended to mean in the BoB K reply but I need to set the record straight about the Chairman's and my intent.

Most everyone can spot a speeder and call '911' with out any formal training whatsoever. Only a trained cave diver can spot and untrained diver and don't we have an obligation to use our training and expertise to warn of danger if not to the untrained diver but to some form of authority? Don't we have more of an obligation to the land owner or park a manager that we do a "rule breaker?" EN was opened as a result of cave divers policing themselves when it was privately owned for thirty years. I know that BECAUSE I WAS A PART OF THE DISCUSSION.

IUCRR divers are remarkable people supported by their wives and family who hate the thought of their going into harms way. IUCRR divers have had some difficulties that put them at risk during recoveries that have not been reported to the general public after a specific incident. Problems that happen without any regard to training such as free flows, DCS hits because of the additional workload, being wedged in restrictions, depth and gas management and the nausea associated with the taste of the decomposing deceased they are tethered to. NO recovery is ever easy or routine.

Semper Fi, you have my utmost respect.

/Ken

[TraceMalin]

While I think the statement is well-written, the sentiment is kind, and the message meant to inspire people to action whenever possible, the fault of society isn't that we don't often act to do the right thing, but we seem to be unable to lie blame squarely on the shoulders of people who need to assume full responsibility for their actions.

[BobK]

Shirley,

I don't know what comment "this" was intended to mean in the BoB K reply but I need to set the record straight about the Chairman's and my intent.

Most everyone can spot a speeder and call '911' with out any formal training whatsoever. Only a trained cave diver can spot and untrained diver and don't we have an obligation to use our training and expertise to warn of danger if not to the untrained diver but to some form of authority? Don't we have more of an obligation to the land owner or park a manager that we do a "rule breaker?" EN was opened as a result of cave divers policing themselves when it was privately owned for thirty years. I know that BECAUSE I WAS A PART OF THE DISCUSSION.

IUCRR divers are remarkable people supported by their wives and family who hate the thought of their going into harms way. IUCRR divers have had some difficulties that put them at risk during recoveries that have not been reported to the general public after a specific incident. Problems that happen without any regard to training such as free flows, DCS hits because of the additional workload, being wedged in restrictions, depth and gas management and the nausea associated with the taste of the decomposing deceased they are tethered to. NO recovery is ever easy or routine.

Semper Fi, you have my utmost respect.

/Ken

"this" typically means "I Agree"
I am an Air Force veteran, so can't claim the "Semper Fi". But I do claim freedom from government intruding into our lives. I think that we should be free to live, or die, based on our personal choices. I think that the results of that decision should not affect anyone else. I think we were a better country when most citizens believed this.

[Ken Hill]

"this" typically means "I Agree"
I am an Air Force veteran, so can't claim the "Semper Fi". But I do claim freedom from government intruding into our lives. I think that we should be free to live, or die, based on our personal choices. I think that the results of that decision should not affect anyone else. I think we were a better country when most citizens believed this.

Bob,
I agree with you and feel the same way myself. Cave divers are perhaps the only people that have successfully regulated themselves and their dive sites. No one can spot an untrained diver better than a trained cave diver. As a community looking out for our sport we can remain free to participate in activities without the regulation you fear!

Perhaps ten years ago you could not get a cave diver to tell you where some dive sites were. Now they are now frequented by untrained divers and discussed on forums. Too many cases have been reported where victims family members said the deceased "learned to cave dive on the internet." The internet is a good thing however the byproduct of well intentioned cave divers sharing information to make the sport safer has opened up a can of worms. Information shared from formal training has allowed some to IGNORE the dangers taught in FORMAL TRAINING and when they die our community takes the hit.

Its my opinion that forty years ago training programs taught the world cave diving is safe and the dynamiting and gates on caves stopped. It is reasonable that cave divers once again become pro-active and deal with those who ignore the need for training before the bureaucracy does. If we don't do a reasonable job of policing or regulating ourselves, government regulations will do it for us and that is what you don't want and neither do I.

[JE]

I guess I'm just old and tired - I no longer try to prevent untrained divers from going into the caves...

Lets all chip in & buy Russell a cool 'Rug' this year, so that he 'looks like the star' he really is ! :P {kind words for an old friend}

Jack

[Hammerhead Ferrari]

Bob,
I agree with you and feel the same way myself. Cave divers are perhaps the only people that have successfully regulated themselves and their dive sites. No one can spot an untrained diver better than a trained cave diver. As a community looking out for our sport we can remain free to participate in activities without the regulation you fear!

Perhaps ten years ago you could not get a cave diver to tell you where some dive sites were. Now they are now frequented by untrained divers and discussed on forums. Too many cases have been reported where victims family members said the deceased "learned to cave dive on the internet." The internet is a good thing however the byproduct of well intentioned cave divers sharing information to make the sport safer has opened up a can of worms. Information shared from formal training has allowed some to IGNORE the dangers taught in FORMAL TRAINING and when they die our community takes the hit.

Its my opinion that forty years ago training programs taught the world cave diving is safe and the dynamiting and gates on caves stopped. It is reasonable that cave divers once again become pro-active and deal with those who ignore the need for training before the bureaucracy does. If we don't do a reasonable job of policing or regulating ourselves, government regulations will do it for us and that is what you don't want and neither do I.

Ken,

Cave diving and the "rules" as well as training information is out on the Internet...as well as the warnings about proper training. The father in the current "rash of publicity" case was told to get proper training and disregarded the advise, unfortunately these people exist in our society. Now that the information is out on the Internet it isn't going to go away.

The biggest reason this issue is virtually non existent in tech & wreck diving is simple...access to dive boats is controlled by the Owner/Operator of the dive vessel, show Cert or don't dive. Whether by personal responsibility of the Op, the threat of liability of allowing an un-cert'd diver to dive, or simply not wanting to deal with the hassle if the proverbial SHTF. A sufficient portion of the caves do not require a boat to access, removing this barrier.

Some of the caves require proof of Cert before being allowed to dive (ie: Ginnie), or in some of the parks C-Cards must be left of the dash of a vehicle (ie: Peacock). The same threats to the property owners/managers help to create barriers to un-cert'd access.

The "problem" is in keeping the above individuals out of the cave systems that do not have these barriers (ie: EN, Little River). I understand your "See Something, Say Something" idea. I am not from cave country and very few people there know who I am and I would understand and not object to showing anyone my C-Card, however likewise, I know very few people there and where would you propose I begin or end in asking others? Now, I would certainly be curious about a 15yo at a site such as EN and I'm certainly not shy enough to not ask a question or two in that situation, but lets be honest here...this was probably a very rare scenario.

The cave diving community may be good at self policing, but that is the crux of the issue, there is no such thing as "SCUBA or Cave police", so;
1)Who would I report the above situation to?
2)What am I to do once it has been reported? Am I to become their "safety" diver if they disregard me? (This also then puts me at risk)
3)Furthermore, what would be the penalty...besides the obvious one that we are trying to avoid?
4)I am a foreigner, putting myself in a situation that may become confrontational and lead to the authorities attending may get me expelled from the country, this WILL absolutely affect my career, who will help me in this situation?

You appear to be the spokesperson for the IUCRR, that provides you with contact and ability to open discussions with authority personnel, perhaps you could seek their input on this matter.

Poachers have their hunting/fishing gear confiscated when they are caught, perhaps Florida needs a similar penalty for diving without proper certification on state property? If the authorities need justification for this type of penalty, this is more life threatening than poaching is...so it is for the perpetrators own safety. However this means involving the government, I agree that I prefer not to have government intrusion. Perhaps going to them and requesting this will show them that our self governance approves of this measure. The diving associations lack the authority to do this, and they offer this as an alternative to having to govern an activity they don't know enough about to govern. I know, slippery slope...

I realize I have more questions than answers, however I think you, the IUCRR, & the agencies perhaps need to answer some of these, and make some proposals as opposed to asking the individuals to fix something we lack the authority, control, or ability to do.

Bentley

[Ken Hill]

Bentley,
I am watching this closely and have learned from the efforts to open Madison, Jackson Blue, Eagles Nest and dealing with Law Enforcement at many site where fatalities occurred what law enforcement is capable of and what we are capable of. The do not have the resources or people to patrol the dive sites nor do they have the time to wait until divers surface to see if they are trained.

You touch on what the IUCRR and agencies can do and I can assure you the response will be based on more training at the cave level, recommendations to the OW levels and proposals will be based on what the cave diving community will do to make the sport safer.

However when tales of untrained people that are cave diving appear as internet chat both before and after their fatality something is wrong! When the personal representative of the estate of an untrained victim sues the CDS, an Instructor, and dive shop something is wrong. Its time to be proactive.

See something - Say Something means exactly that. If you see someone obviously untrained say something. I they are trained all the better, if they're not and listen and learn that's a start. If they don't listen and dive you will have at least tried and the info you learn may help if there is a recovery effort. Maybe I'm naïve but I don't see any cave diver an missing opportunity to educate someone when by doing so they promote our sport and protect it.