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  1. #1

    Default Safety suggestions

    Introduction

    Firstly, let me explain that i don't dive and will never dive due to having asthma and having a fear of water; after watching Sanctum, i did some research and as a land-locked humanoid, i found your underwater World fascinating. I hope divers reading this aren't offended by a non-diver proffering ideas.

    Why?

    The film said it was based on real events and after reading the wiki page i came across Agnes Milowka and her sad death under eerily similar circumstances depicted in the film - my research began, fueled by these questions i) why do people dive caves and ii) why do very experienced divers like Aggie, Wes and Dave Shaw drown?

    I'll pontificate these questions in another thread as i want to discuss safety here.

    From this website, it lists accident reports and i got the feeling the main reason for fatalities was the main line, whether it's a lost line or getting tangled. So with all the triple redundancy prevalent in cave diving (rule of thirds and three lights), i was left thinking...what about navigation? How can divers rely on only a single line as their life-line to the surface?

    Line lighting

    From this video, it shows a lost line procedure and at the end he attaches a torch, why? Surely, it would be better to attach a high-powered, omnidirectional strobe that flashes every 10secs. Perhaps you could carry a single strobe beacon for different purposes - a) when you explore a side cavern and leave the main line, you attach the strobe and switch it to green, so it marks the T-junction, b) if you lose the line (as in the video), you attach the strobe and have it flash orange and c) if it's an emergency (silt out + lost line), you leave the strobe attached to yourself and turn it red to assist buddy location or recovery.

    Reeling

    Watching some vids makes me feel very uncomfortable when they spool off the line as they dive. You're meant to do it at arms length, but some people show their flippers kicking the line behind them as it's deployed. Perhaps the reel should have an extension rod to make sure the line is deployed away from the body and underneath.

    Line identification

    I watched a video where he knotted the line for survey purposes. What if the line was colour-coded? The first 100ft = green, 100-200ft = orange and 200-300ft = red; the next 'depth set' could be blues, eg 300-400ft = blue, 400-500ft = purple and 500-600ft would be aqua blue. Also, what if the line was braided in such a way as to identify direction? It would be rough when rubbed one way with your fingers and smooth the other way, so no matter where you are along its length, you'd be able to identify the exit direction in silt-out without having to find the last cookie, marker or REM.

    Computer

    What if your dive computer could track lateral movement? Perhaps have a laser or echo-locator attached that pings your surroundings and feeds back into your computer. This combined with depth would create a 3D mapping. If you get lost, you hit [Return] on your computer and it shows you the way out as it's mapped your journey to that point.

    This is obviously batman stuff, but i'm just thinking aloud. Perhaps divers could place semi-permanent beacons in the cave, lodged at some safe point in a rock. A diver could then press a button on their computer to search for any location markers that would return simple data like depth and distance from exit, so they'd be able to create way-points on their journey in the micro-controller. Lithium-polymer batteries and an asynchronous request from the beacon would increase longevity and a light on the beacon would turn red when it needs maintenance.

    Self-safety

    Know your limitations! As much as i think that some people shouldn't be allowed to drive if they fail their test five times, perhaps a similar bench-mark should be set for diving. An ideal test would be for kinesthesia / proprioception or self-awareness. If you can't locate a line in a room blind-folded and spun around twice, then you know you'd struggle in a silt-out. You also need to be aware of your personality type, as ego & over-confidence don't belong in caves; your inner voice is the power of sub-conscious telling you that it knows your limits and you're at the edge...listen to it!

    Conclusion

    Sorry for the wall of text. I was unsure whether to register (thanks Tom (TJ)) and post this as it may sound arrogant to offer advice for something I've never done, but anti-dogfooding is a valuable sense check to abate complacency and highlight different viewpoints.

    I have the utmost admiration for cave divers, your minds are wired differently to two-dimensional land dwellers; you relish the dark and crave the deep for pleasure when ordinarily it's the most terrifying experience for others.


  2. #2
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    When I first started diving I was thinking of some of those things but to me not having all these extra things makes it a lot more enjoyable. For me cave diving is a sense of exploration, high tech beacons, street signs and your line suggestion would just take away from the fun. I enjoy reading the maps before and after a dive, as well as having to constantly be aware of depth and condition. I think implementing many of those called 'extra safety measures' would lead to complacency because some people may start to rely on them rather then the training and experience. Just my 2 cents.

    Nikolaj Kavallar

  3. #3
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    Hi Deep,

    No offence taken to your questions and comments. Because of your lack of knowledge regarding what we do and how the procedures and gear have been developed, the suggestions are unnecessary and way out there. Except - Know your limitations! This one is the big key, and the problem is that in this pusuit one can get in too deep/far/complex pretty easily, and many don't realize they are past their limitations until it is too late to recover from the poor decision.

    WJH


  4. #4
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    I love posts like this on the "Cave Diver's Forum".

    Joe


    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Pyle
    "After my first 10 hours on a rebreather, I was a real expert. Another 40 hours of dive time later, I considered myself a novice. When I had completed about 100 hours of rebreather diving, I realized I was only just a beginner."

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nkavallar View Post
    When I first started diving I was thinking of some of those things but to me not having all these extra things makes it a lot more enjoyable. For me cave diving is a sense of exploration, high tech beacons, street signs and your line suggestion would just take away from the fun. I enjoy reading the maps before and after a dive, as well as having to constantly be aware of depth and condition. I think implementing many of those called 'extra safety measures' would lead to complacency because some people may start to rely on them rather then the training and experience. Just my 2 cents.
    That's very interesting; it confirms my expectation that you have an exploratory mind-set, to go where others haven't and having a google-map equivalent holding your hand negates that thrill of adventure. I wonder how many cave-divers do true exploration or just prefer wandering around well-trodden paths?

    Surely it's better to have a safe-zone in the cave where you know others have been and it's well mapped with safety backups and when you reach the end of that zone, you're into virgin territory. So if anything bad happens, you only need to swim back to the safe-zone. This will still quench your thirst for adventure but with the added benefit of knowing where you need to go if TSHTF.


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepDark View Post
    That's very interesting; it confirms my expectation that you have an exploratory mind-set, to go where others haven't and having a google-map equivalent holding your hand negates that thrill of adventure. I wonder how many cave-divers do true exploration or just prefer wandering around well-trodden paths?

    Surely it's better to have a safe-zone in the cave where you know others have been and it's well mapped with safety backups and when you reach the end of that zone, you're into virgin territory. So if anything bad happens, you only need to swim back to the safe-zone. This will still quench your thirst for adventure but with the added benefit of knowing where you need to go if TSHTF.
    If there is a line, someone else has been there.

    There are training protocols to address the other ideas you have... I sent you a PM.

    Joe


    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Pyle
    "After my first 10 hours on a rebreather, I was a real expert. Another 40 hours of dive time later, I considered myself a novice. When I had completed about 100 hours of rebreather diving, I realized I was only just a beginner."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepDark View Post
    That's very interesting; it confirms my expectation that you have an exploratory mind-set, to go where others haven't and having a google-map equivalent holding your hand negates that thrill of adventure. I wonder how many cave-divers do true exploration or just prefer wandering around well-trodden paths?

    Surely it's better to have a safe-zone in the cave where you know others have been and it's well mapped with safety backups and when you reach the end of that zone, you're into virgin territory. So if anything bad happens, you only need to swim back to the safe-zone. This will still quench your thirst for adventure but with the added benefit of knowing where you need to go if TSHTF.
    I'm not an cave explorer by any means yet, and only dive where people have been before to build experience (I'm a fairly new cave diver). But to me it seems that you have that "European" mindset to make everything more standard and controlled (I'm german, I know lol). I'm not sure if you understand the reasons why people choose to cave dive, but I won't expand on that.

    Nikolaj Kavallar

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WJH View Post
    Hi Deep,

    No offence taken to your questions and comments. Because of your lack of knowledge regarding what we do and how the procedures and gear have been developed, the suggestions are unnecessary and way out there. Except - Know your limitations! This one is the big key, and the problem is that in this pusuit one can get in too deep/far/complex pretty easily, and many don't realize they are past their limitations until it is too late to recover from the poor decision.

    WJH
    I know i don't belong here and someone PM'ed me saying perhaps i should use scuba forums instead. I see OW and cave diving as two separate entities as OW divers don't relish that extra nuance of having a ceiling above them. That's what fascinates me about 'you lot', your ability to dive deep in enclosed spaces...i want to understand and hope i don't offend with my questions / suggestions and teaching grandma to suck eggs.

    I found Bill Stone's video fascinating as it merges the two hostile environments of caving and space exploration.


  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by nkavallar View Post
    I'm not sure if you understand the reasons why people choose to cave dive, but I won't expand on that.
    No i don't and i never will....that's why i felt compelled to register and probe your minds.

    btw, i'm English.


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepDark View Post
    No i don't and i never will....that's why i felt compelled to register and probe your minds.

    btw, i'm English.
    That clears it up. I thought Europa was one of Jupiter's moons.

    WJH



 

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