eagles nest question

[Jim Wyatt]

I am opposed to short jumps anywhere. Reason being too easy to get onto the wrong line.

Jumps as opposed to T's are safer in my opinion because it requires the diver to slow down and install the jump. I would be hard pressed to believe that a T is ever safer than a jump. I do think they are faster and perhaps more efficient in terms of time, but not safer because I think slowing down, and installing a line is safer. Opinions vary.

[jcr]

I would be hard pressed to believe that a T is ever safer than a jump. I do think they are faster and perhaps more efficient in terms of time, but not safer because I think slowing down, and installing a line is safer. Opinions vary.

The problem with jumps, particularly short ones, is when a diver misses it on the way in, then spots it on the way out and becomes confused/lost because they "know" they didn't make a jump. Several people have died in Mexico for just this reason.

T everything and run the mainline to the surface.

[MDiver429]

This jump must have been cut back. I did it right before the flooding and it is easily a 10-15 foot jump to your left now.

[deepdiver4]

10 to 15 ft on the left been that way for awhile now.

[barney00]

As Jim stated, opinions vary and I doubt you can make every diver happy with how lines are run.
In this specific situation though, there is also the fact we are talking about a jump off of the main gold line, so that should help non-attentive or confused divers accidentally getting on the wrong line. Plus the fact the line was positioned closer to the right wall of the side tunnel in question so the jump was more perpendicular versus it's formerly very acute angle running (Y junction under the mud) off the original white mainline.

[PfcAJ]

Non attentive divers at Eagle's Nest? I guess that is a thing, isn't it?

[diveongas]

I am opposed to short jumps anywhere. Reason being too easy to get onto the wrong line.

Jumps as opposed to T's are safer in my opinion because it requires the diver to slow down and install the jump. I would be hard pressed to believe that a T is ever safer than a jump. I do think they are faster and perhaps more efficient in terms of time, but not safer because I think slowing down, and installing a line is safer. Opinions vary.

Absolutely. +1

[diveongas]

The problem with jumps, particularly short ones, is when a diver misses it on the way in, then spots it on the way out and becomes confused/lost because they "know" they didn't make a jump. Several people have died in Mexico for just this reason.

T everything and run the mainline to the surface.

I don't follow. Are you saying that on the way in, they accidentally left the main line, didn't even notice it, end up on the jump line, then while exiting they discover the jump they must have made but didn't?

If this is what you mean, these folks are completely incompetent and should not be making cave dives. Somebody this aloof would just mis-mark, or more likely, not even mark his T's and would die anyways. Again, these people should NOT be cave diving.

Many T's create a labyrinth that often does lead to fatalities. Conventional Line Committee thinking today for public caves in parks (in USA) is to avoid T's for this reason. Different teams going to different destinations (especially if more than one system exit exists, or if T's occur on a traverse/circuit) might leave such a myriad of T markers as to make a loss of visibility exit so complicated as to possibly cause fatalities. (see Jim Wyatt above.)

[apitkin]

I don't follow. Are you saying that on the way in, they accidentally left the main line, didn't even notice it, end up on the jump line, then while exiting they discover the jump they must have made but didn't?

If this is what you mean, these folks are completely incompetent and should not be making cave dives. Somebody this aloof would just mis-mark, or more likely, not even mark his T's and would die anyways. Again, these people should NOT be cave diving.

Many T's create a labyrinth that often does lead to fatalities. Conventional Line Committee thinking today for public caves in parks (in USA) is to avoid T's for this reason. Different teams going to different destinations (especially if more than one system exit exists, or if T's occur on a traverse/circuit) might leave such a myriad of T markers as to make a loss of visibility exit so complicated as to possibly cause fatalities. (see Jim Wyatt above.)

Have you been to Mexico? How long have you been cave diving? How many real (as opposed to simulated or supervised) true zero visibility exits have you made through complex systems?

I think what you are saying is demonstrating some inexperience. I think you will find many very experienced cave divers will admit to having made exactly the mistake you are deriding. Yes, an error. I am inexperienced compared with many here but I will put my hand up first.

Even highly proficient cave divers make errors. Because they are human. In some divers the unexpected realisation that they have made a navigational error when they come back to a jump they missed can derail them enough to lead to a fatal accident. This has happened in Mexico.

The question is, what system of line connection is best to minimise the chance of a simple slip due to distraction or whatever causing a significant navigational problem. One possible solution (as Charle, jcr, says) is the well-marked T, used in many caves worldwide. Another is a significant gap, which is what Jim is advocating. Both in my opinion are superior to a shorter, more convenient gap.

No system that relies on a diver being perfect will be as reliable as a system that doesn't.

Andy Pitkin

[cavewoman]

Have you been to Mexico? How long have you been cave diving? How many real (as opposed to simulated or supervised) true zero visibility exits have you made through complex systems?

I think what you are saying is demonstrating some inexperience. I think you will find many very experienced cave divers will admit to having made exactly the mistake you are deriding. Yes, an error. I am inexperienced compared with many here but I will put my hand up first.

Even highly proficient cave divers make errors. Because they are human. In some divers the unexpected realisation that they have made a navigational error when they come back to a jump they missed can derail them enough to lead to a fatal accident. This has happened in Mexico.

The question is, what system of line connection is best to minimise the chance of a simple slip due to distraction or whatever causing a significant navigational problem. One possible solution (as Charle, jcr, says) is the well-marked T, used in many caves worldwide. Another is a significant gap, which is what Jim is advocating. Both in my opinion are superior to a shorter, more convenient gap.

No system that relies on a diver being perfect will be as reliable as a system that doesn't.

Andy Pitkin

Well said Andy.