Super Wal-Mart/Alachua Sink

[SeaPlusPlus]

As far as load-related damage, forgetaboutit. The load from a building such as a Supercenter is not very high - its a single story, and spread over a huge area. This is not a high-rise going up with point-source loading in the pylons that form the anchorment for the foundation - its a poured slab that diffuses the load over the entire area.

While I disagree with you on your point regarding competition with local businesses, you're spot-on on this one. My dad used to build pre-stressed concrete water tanks (1m-21m gallons) which had a much heavier load per square foot than a Walmart would, and even they didn't have to worry that much about this sort of thing. In fact, I had never heard of "dynamic compaction" before this, and many of his tanks were built in Florida. Some of them in cave country. Granted, I don't know if any of them were directly over diveable karst, but some of them were within spitting distance of many dry limestone caves that we used to explore as kids.



Wil

[Limestone Cowboy]

While I agree it's not likely that the building would be supported on piles, I'm certain that compaction grouting would at least be considered. The Wal-Mart in Tarpon Springs (not the new super center, the one south of the lake) had deep compaction grouting done prior to construction. It wouldn't take much grout pumped into a fracture connected to the cave to really foul things up. I also just completed a large number of test borings to define grouting points for a water plant with 2 very large tanks. It all depends on the engineering firm that gets the job. A lot has changed in the last decade in respect to building on karst as insurance companies have begun to be more picky over what they will insure in certain areas, and underground environmentalists have gotten a bigger voice.

I also said "rarely", not "has not" with regard to dynamic compaction in Florida. Out in an open field, well above the water table, it might be an attractive method. Where I generally work in suburban neighborhoods and closer to the water table, it's a method thats likely to cause more collateral damage than acceptable.

Wal-Mart is not totally inflexible. You just need a long lever and plenty of pull. I still think the endangered species route is the best one. Is there a high accuracy map of Alachua/Mill Creek cave that has been overlaid on a aerial or topo map that can be used as evidence?

Drew

[Cindy]

Gees you guys, I had a professional environmental consultant look at it and he said you are wrong. First the Super Center has an oil changing area and will have gas pumps. The environmental requirements and amount of cement and containment goes up a LOT when you are talking about that. Obviously the cave survived a highway going over it well enough. (we still however have very high lead levels in the cave water from old oil and gas run off) Load on the Karst and the type of limestone as well as the depth of the cave in the area also play into it. Samples of rock were taken and a study was done. It was also noted how much cement would be needed to support the building and containment areas. I can tell you right now if the cave is crushed in that area what will happen. The cave right now drains around 70 square miles of flood plane. Mother nature put that water into the siphon hole in the Mill Creek Cave system. You plug that downstream passage and you will not only have the underground spring pumping water that is going no place but all that rain water. The lowest point is the parking area at Wal Mart the next lowest point will be the city. Thats not even going into the ecological damage that can be done over a broad sweeping area of water discharge. The cave has been dye tested to Hornsby Spring. It doesn't take much of an IQ to figure out what a direct spill into a water source like that could do to the two cities it passes under and the river it directly connects to. So men, please get some information before you decide and post like you are doing. Next, as for the business owners being so poor at their prices they created the need for Wal Mart, I have never heard such a load in my life. Wal Mart was denied going into Gainesville because of the fear of contamination to the water shed that feeds into Paines Praire. The only reason they are looking at Alachua is that it was the next exit up I-75. Cindy Butler

[rchrds]

Drew- are you sure that dynamic compaction has not been used in Florida? I seem to remember a few years back (3-4) when the early bid for the N. Gainesville site came in, some early tests were done- and these did involve this method- I vividly remember reading an article in the G'ville Sun describing the results of this method in detail, though it may have been a description of another site- can anyone check the Sun records and verify this?

Thanks!

J

[SeaPlusPlus]

Gees you guys, I had a professional environmental consultant look at it and he said you are wrong. First the Super Center has an oil changing area and will have gas pumps. The environmental requirements and amount of cement and containment goes up a LOT when you are talking about that.

I was only commenting on the load issue. I'm definitely anti-Walmart to begin with (as a disclaimer), and I too worry about all of the other ecological impacts you pointed out. Again, I wouldn't think that the weight of the building would be an issue, but as you pointed out there are several other issues at hand.

Another disclaimer: The water tanks my dad built were much much heaver (well, let's say more dense) than any building Walmart could build. I was present for the building of a few of them in the Gainesville area, as I was working on his job crew. That does not mean that I was privy to all of the surveys and assessments done beforehand. I am only speaking from my personal experience as to what preparatory work was done to get the site buildable. In addition, I was a teenager that didn't cave dive at the time, so I'm not exactly an expert.

I'll probably call my dad tonight to get his input on this. He's very anti-Walmart and pro-environment. Given his experience and point of view, if he says that the load isn't an issue I'll buy it. Again, I'm only commenting on the load/dynamic compaction issue. On every other point I'm certainly in the anti-Walmart camp.


Wil

[Kelly Jessop]

http://publici.ucimc.org/aug2001/082001_5.htm

Wal-Mart and the Environmentby Lindsay Robinson

The following article details some of Wal-Mart's environmental abuses in the United States. Look for future articles about Wal-Mart's labor, human rights, and community development policies in upcoming issues of this paper.

As people in the Champaign-Urbana area await the opening of a second Wal-Mart store (a Wal-Mart Supercenter), most are completely unaware of the environmental problems that Wal-Mart can bring.

But many people in Connecticut, Washington, and Pennsylvania are angry with the retail giant for violating state water quality standards. Environmental officials in those states have complained of a host of similar problems regarding Wal-Mart construction sites. The Wal-Marts in question did not use the proper methods for clearing the site for construction. When heavy rains pelted the sites, water carried tons of silt to the nearby rivers and streams, threatening not only the life within the waterways but also the drinking water of thousands of people. In 1998 Pennsylvania's Department of Environmental Protection issued a work stop order at one site, but most of the work had already been completed.

Erosion is not the only environmental problem with Wal-Mart stores. The Connecticut Department of Environmental Protection sued Wal-Mart over pesticide and fertilizer pollution in its rivers and streams in May 2000. Connecticut claims that 11 Wal-Mart stores left pesticides and fertilizers in the parking lot, when hard rains fell on the lot, the chemicals were carried into rivers and streams, affecting the health of plants, animals, and people.

Environmentalists and community groups across the country are worried because new Wal-Mart stores are constructed at a rapid pace, with one new store opening every two business days. Most states and communities do not have enough resources to enforce their water quality standards and cannot police every construction site. The laws Wal-Mart is violating are on the books, but there is no money to enforce them. According to Wal-Mart's 2001 annual report, there are already 138 Wal-Mart and Sam's Club stores open in Illinois, not including those stores under construction, such as the new Supercenter sites in Springfield and Savoy (just south of Champaign).

Environmental inspectors in Dallas complained that the government was going to give Wal-Mart stores special treatment in a water-quality settlement. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) proposed different inspection procedures for Wal-Mart stores only. According to James Graham, the EPA' s top water pollution enforcer, the deal would eliminate some water quality standards in order to give Wal-Mart its own official inspection procedure. The Justice Department dismissed the case, even after the statement by the EPA official, but the EPA is revising the settlement with Wal-Mart.

One of Wal-Mart's other environmentally destructive policies involves the placement of their stores. Wal-Mart and other "big box" retailers gobble up prime farmland and other natural habitat every day. While we worry about feeding the more than six billion people on this planet, our cities and counties allow the destruction of lush farmland that could provide sustenance for more people. The problem, generally referred to as "urban sprawl," continues to grow. Communities face the problem of balancing growth and jobs with the protection of the environment and the preservation of their existing economic bases. Sprawl also increases car-dependency for a community, raising the amount of greenhouse gases emitted and causing consumers to use more gas.

While Wal-Mart is busy polluting our lakes and streams, their executives are running a major campaign to show how environmentally friendly they are. Wal-Mart boasts its selection of environmentally conscious products and how much money it gives away to environmental causes. Wal-Mart made $6.3 Billion dollars last year after expenses, giving away $190 million dollars to charity with $1.3 million of that going to environmental causes. While $190 million dollars might sound like a lot of money it only makes up about of 3% of their profits, with only 0.021% of their profits going to help the environment. Wal-Mart causes more damage than it helps to clean up.

Wal-Mart is the world's largest retailer and the second largest employer in the United States, behind the federal government. Wal-Mart is huge, and the problems it is associated with are even larger.

[Kelly Jessop]

Drew- are you sure that dynamic compaction has not been used in Florida? I seem to remember a few years back (3-4) when the early bid for the N. Gainesville site came in, some early tests were done- and these did involve this method- I vividly remember reading an article in the G'ville Sun describing the results of this method in detail, though it may have been a description of another site- can anyone check the Sun records and verify this?

Thanks!

J

http://www.terrasystems-inc.com/terranotes/sinkhole_correction.pdf#search='dynamic%20compacti on%20florida'

"Dynamic compaction has been successfully used...in a number of states including Florida..."

[Gary]

ps. let me know if chaining myself to a tree would help!

Well, it might slow you down from arguing on the internet...
That would be a help!

[Cindy]

Well, it might slow you down from arguing on the internet...
That would be a help! [/quote]

Nope, still have that laptop! Cindy :P

[Trailridgefire]

Hey Cindy.I noticed that the City of GNV gave Wal-Mart a fit hwen they wanted to build at 53rd ave and 441,now their other sight looks like its a losing battle too.Alachua County and the City of GNV seem to have always been a "tree-hugger" (no offense to anyone) and environment minded government,what does the Alachua Co. DEP have to say?I know a couple of land managers there and it seems they wouldnt let this go un touched. Paul