Training Time Expirations on certificates: Too restrictive or Just Right?

[Seanmeboy]

That is exactly what the cards indicate. Full cave. Back to singles. or keep renewing. I can work with that, however I think going from side mount doubles (apprentice which allows more depth and navigation than NAUI Cave I) to singles Intro is a bit too restrictive (the point of this thread) IMHO, in light of the fact that it technically technically nullifies a bought and earned side mount class.

It is my other occupation that drove me to this.


God I need the river to down

[mag3]

This is interesting. So, your into / apprentice card expires, and you are busted back to single-cylinder cavern . . . .

Or single-cylinder "Intro" if that's what you had (or could obtain)...

and that single cylinder is to make you safer? This really doesn't make sense.

Not so much to "make you safer," but (in theory) to keep you from "getting into more trouble/danger" by limiting your penetration distance into the cave. The further you go in, the further you have to go to get out in an emergency, and the more gas you need, overall. By the time you are ready to take on "full cave," hopefully, you also have the skills, the control, and the situational awareness required to make an emergency egress, if needed, at those penetration distances.

I can see where this might not make sense to those who have dived doubles as "tech/deep" divers in OW for a long time (or CCRs) and are just starting cave training. That's a conversation I think you'd need to have with your instructor. FWIW, I had completed AN/DP and was diving doubles before I began my cave training. I was allowed to do all of my cave training in doubles (Cavern, Intro, etc.). For "cavern," it really doesn't matter because of the 200ft. linear penetration and "natural ambient light" limits. You're probably not going even to reach "1/6th" on that. But you can easily do so with "Intro/Basic." Thankfully, I practiced enough and was able to get to CC enough to complete "apprentice" before the "Intro/Doubles" expired, and "full cave" before apprentice expired.

[mag3]

That is exactly what the cards indicate. Full cave. Back to singles. or keep renewing. I can work with that, however I think going from side mount doubles (apprentice which allows more depth and navigation than NAUI Cave I) to singles Intro is a bit too restrictive (the point of this thread) IMHO, in light of the fact that it technically technically nullifies a bought and earned side mount class.

Well... it *may* nullify it for "overhead/cave" environments, but I don't think it can nullify it for OW, right? Was it a "cave" side mount class, or a "general" side mount class? I believe (at least for NACD/CDS training), you must be "full cave" before being able to take the cave oriented "side mount" specialty classes. And, as I stated previously, I was able to dive doubles (BM) during my cavern training and thereafter. If you were to revert to cavern, I don't see why you could not do so in doubles, side mount or not. But, again, that's a conversation for you and your instructor.

[Seanmeboy]

I do not know if it nullifies it for OW. No matter what the card says if it is expired.....After the the sidemount cave class, I was able to upgrade my intro(restricted to singles cylinder) to basic (restricted to 1/6 doubles) but it -the basic card, expires in 18 months. I was told that CDS has no stand alone "side-mount cert". Therin lies the IMO unfair restriction because After I got apprentice to remove the 1/6 of doubles restriction it was explained that it is a paper card that expires in one year with sidemount checked under "completed using" (other check is backmount). It is my understanding that cavern to full cave can be performed with doubles of either configuration. at any rate I now have two cards indicate doubles but they both expire leaving me back to intro single or at least that is what the cards technically indicate. I did not mention that I was dual certified NACD but they have no permanent card (a stand alone sidemount/ doubles config) indication. Of course a good instructor would like to test your ability with sidemount by challenging er training you in a smaller than regular place but this training is time sensitive because intro allows no such restrictions. I find it odd that your c-card (valid/current)does not indicate your highest level of experience.

I would point out that I am committed to CDS and that this is not a gripe. Just pointing things out in case any improvements need be made to maintain increase participation in this great organization. end of rant

[syntaxerrorsix]

This appears to be something new. When I was certified with "Double Cylinders - Intro to Cave" (07/2010), I was issued a laminated paper card (I have it in front me right now) that has an expiration date of 1 year after the date of certification. The only "permanent" plastic cards I have are "Cavern" and "Full Cave."

Is there no expiry date on the back of this card?

No, just my vital stats and the instructor name and number.

[syntaxerrorsix]

I had to do deco on my last dive in Mexico diving 32% at Jailhouse. I don't know that it's a terrible idea to require it, or include a short lecture in Full Cave about basic, o2 deco.

Outside of North Florida I don't know where anyone would go to get an O2 fill without an AN card. So I agree, if deco and O2 are to be used in training then AN/DP should be taught.

Nothing I was taught in Cave held a candle to my AN/DP course.

[IowaCaveDiver]

my wife did cavern/intro a few years back... she was issued a basic w/doubles (1/6's) that expired after 1 year. About 1.5years ago we took the overhead sidemount class. She is wanting to move forward to full cave certification but still feels she needs more experience and enjoys diving at her current level. The expired card hadn't been an issue until we showed up at Ginnie one day (we rarely dive there) and tried to sign in to dive... they would not acknowledge her basic card and would only allow her to dive sidemount in the ballroom since the basic card was expired and all she could be given credit for was cavern. Very frustrated we left and went to dive peacock... hadn't been back since. We spoke with our overhead sidemount instructor and he issued her another NSS basic card w/sidemount and no expiration. problem solved, but still super annoying.

[Jim Wyatt]

We spoke with our overhead sidemount instructor and he issued her another NSS basic card w/sidemount and no expiration. problem solved, but still super annoying.

Double check with her instructor because there is no such certification through the NSS-CDS as Basic Cave Card with sidemount that has no expiration. Nor for that matter do we issue a Basic Cave Card with sidemount that has an expiration date.

I have been printing the certification cards for the NSS-CDS for 6 or 7 years.

[IowaCaveDiver]

I stand corrected... the new card looks different than her old one... the small print on the back states "expires 18 months after issue date"... dang, now i'm annoyed again.