Nitrox instruction

[jj1987]

Is this a real question? You don't go too deep, you stay down longer. Jeez.

32% has the same MOD as air, assuming any rational respect for narcotic depth. If your students do something on air they wouldn't do on 32%, something is missing...

[CCRMichael]

Is this a real question? You don't go too deep, you stay down longer. Jeez.

But I'm not even talking about *in* the water. I'm talking about analyzing and planning....because if you are about to go into the water you take the analysis and the planning much more seriously. There is no serious downside to a bad analysis in the classroom.

This is exactly what I was saying. Everything you say they are learning by doing the dives is academic. They would be better off spending more time in the classroom where they could plan a lot more than 2 dives. If the classroom portion doesn't make them realize the importance or take it seriously this is where the instruction has failed.
Maybe I'll change my thinking when I have more experience though after all I am not an instructor at that many levels.


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[tursiops]

32% has the same MOD as air, assuming any rational respect for narcotic depth. If your students do something on air they wouldn't do on 32%, something is missing...

So now you are saying that Trimix needs to be included in the OW course? LOL.
And you are comfortable with the newbies diving at a PPO2 of 1.6?

You guys need to get real. These are the folks who can't yet control their buoyancy, have to be constantly reminded to let air out on the way up, dive once per year, and rent all their gear. You guys probably had none of these problems, but you guys are the 1%; the classes are filled up with the other 99%. The trick for the instructor is to identify which is which, and don't overload those who can't handle it, and challenge those who can.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

It kinda reads like you dumb your classes down for dumber students.

[tursiops]

It kinda reads like you dumb your classes down for dumber students.

Sorry that's how you read it. In fact the class stays the same....it is not adjusted to include Nitrox and Trimix (and doubles and shooting a bag, whatever....) just because there might be a really good student in the class who could actually grasp that additional material. If any of the "1%" are in the class, they'll probably be taken aside and treated specially. But the whole class doesn't get inundated just because there is one really good student.
Equally, if there is one really bad student....just doesn't get the material, the class is not brought down to their level. They get taken aside and told they need a private class that goes at their comfortable pace.

[kitsap_diver]

I tend to be in the group that believes that NITROX should be taught in OW. I think there's value to approaching air and nitrox. After all air still gives you a 1.4 at 187 fsw (192 ffw). OW classes claim they require a basic understanding of the gas laws, but I would call the nitrox equations the simplest of expressions for Dalton's Law (which was covered in my OW class).

In additional the "practical skills" (analyzing, verifying MOD, etc.) are built into check out dives, and are just routine for the diver then, and there is nothing inherently more complicated about analyzing gas then setting up a regulator, BCD, cam bands, or whatever other equipment is being utilized for OW checkout dives. It does add one more thing to the checklist, but it's not complicated that it's beyond comprehension for even the mildly stupid amongst us.

To me the argument isn't whether or not we're putting too much in OW class, the question is are we providing sufficient time for class. With more instructional time, people are able to figure this stuff out. There is certainly a lot more information disciminated in a typical college class, or a quarter of a secondary school class,but they offer 1 hour a day, for 10 weeks. Our industry has boiled this down to very little instructional time. Maybe we just can't teach someone everything they need to know in a couple of slideshows. After all we are trying to teach them how to safely use life support equipment

Ulitmately one of the things that I appreciated about my technical classes is that they have hammered into my head that the gas that's going to kill me isn't the helium, it's the oxygen. I need to understand how helium affects my decompression schedule, and adjust, but switching to the wrong mixture with the wrong O2 is going to kill me. Let's drive that in from day 1. Right now we don't give OW students enough information to really understand all the factors at play. They understand time/depth is important to prevent DCS, but they don't get that O2 is toxic at depth (and we don't really worry about an OW diver making t hat mistake because an AL80 won't last long enough past 180 feet to give them time to tox and they'll die of DCS before oxygen anyways).

[jj1987]

So now you are saying that Trimix needs to be included in the OW course? LOL.
And you are comfortable with the newbies diving at a PPO2 of 1.6?

Frankly I don't think trimix is a huge risk for an OW diver who thinks it's nitrox, even 21/35, 30/30, or any mix they'd likely mistake as Nitrox or air wouldn't hurt them, or at worst a mild case of DCS since helium tends to saturate a bit quicker. Not nearly the risk as someone doing a 100ft dive and not realizing they had a rental tank returned with a 50% deco mix.

[corvettejoe]

I think Nitrox is a more useful skill for AOW rather than OW.

I've helped teach a few classes full of teenagers last summer and while some were sharp and got it, others were slower at learning everything needed. It takes several dive trips on your own after training to really let everthing you lean sink in. I think once you get more comfortable in the water, your SAC rate improves and you're ready for more... then take AOW and get Nitrox along with it then.

Also, for the amount a fresh OW person will be diving, I don't really see it as very useful for the added cost of including it (unless it was just rolled into OW for the same price) as most won't ever really use it anyway. They low frequency they will be diving, their SAC will be higher, etc and most end up breathing their tank down far before getting to the table limits anyway.

Now, for those that DO want to dive more, learn more, go deeper, and want the extra bottom time nitrox will give them... teach this along with AOW. The AOW course is usually 1/2 the price of the OW course from most price lists I see, and since Nitrox is usually only $100 anyway from most shops... perhaps roll it into AOW and it comes out about the same as OW. It would be more value added at that point though.

Learning it with AOW might be better since the students already know how to dive now and don't have to focus so hard on the newness of it anymore (how to use tables, how their gear works, are they called goggles or a mask?!) ...and can focus on new skills...one being Nitrox use. With the deeper depths they can now go, it will be a LOT more beneficial to them to use Nitrox vs Air.

I know personally, if I am diving 60ft reefs, I'll dive air all day. If I'm going on some deeper wrecks, deeper caverns/caves, etc I'll switch the Nitrox. (and when I say deeper, I mean the 60-130ft recreational range)

My OW class was five weeks long and included fifteen hours of pool work and fifteen hours of class work. How many of you instructors teach like that?

(The money was made not in instruction, but in selling me the gear needed to scuba dive.)

Mine did

Spread it out over 2 months...we did a LOT of academics, and a LOT more diving and skills before he passed us all. Being NAUI and able to teach beyond what the book calls for, I was practically made a cave diver by the end of my OW class LOL. How many other instructors take the time to make sure their students can properly stay off the bottom, frog kick, not touch ANYTHING, drill into you buoyancy buoyancy buoyancy, not doing the fairy flutter with your hands, learning some basic tech stuff (spools, tying lines, etc for basic OW use)... I learned more with my OW water instructor in my OW class than I've seen any other instructor teach thus far. But it was because he wanted to take the time to teach me everything properly and to be a GREAT diver from day one. His instruction and extra time really paid off and has attributed to the diver I am today.

[TONY CHANEY]

Agree Corvettejoe. (and we really do need a "like" button).

[allen]

32% has the same MOD as air, assuming any rational respect for narcotic depth. If your students do something on air they wouldn't do on 32%, something is missing...

130 ft on EAN32 makes the risky assumption that one's oxygen sensitivity is average or better. (I know of 2 fatalties on EAN32 at 130 ft.) I won't take EAN32 below 110 ft. I do occasionally take air to 135 ft.