More on the concept of leaving the agency days behind the CDS

[speleodiver]

ASA will NEVER issue certs or be an organization for instructors to profit from. It is and will always be science based. Training or should I say mentoring will always be free to all those who seek it.

Here's another way to look at it. Take out the money aspect and the trash will soon leave.

[Leam]

Chris, all the good things I hear about your product reflect in my opinion of you. I've seen your recall stuff and that just raised my opinion. However, I feel your process isn't really workable.

If the CDS is out of the C card business they lose a revenue stream. More people want C cards than want a card from an instructor who has a special blessing. CDS would have zero leverage to get the other agencies to abide by a standard and zero value to a cave instructor to be blessed. Meanwhile we would have lost that revenue stream.

I would counter by taking your idea in a different direction. What if CDS did the work to evaluate/upgrade its instructors, to create a top shelf training program, to analyze student challenges and continually upgrade it's training programs to reflect best practice and accident analysis? What if we did set the standard with our own card and actually figured out how to market the value to a student? Something like "Our students aren't the ones dieing in caves." would get attention.

By staying out of the recreational card business we avoid a lot of competition from the major agencies. It becomes a matter of profitability for them to spin up an entire subdivision that serves a marginal market. If CDS members are the ones doing exploration, writing papers, and actually marketing their activities we become the standard a student wants.

I deeply feel most of our issues are marketing and self-regulation. And I'm only taking the opinions of others on the latter; I'm not an instructor and don't know more than half a dozen cave instructors. All of them are good, in my book.

Leam

[skip]

I like the idea of the NSS-CDS NOT being a certification agency. I like the idea of it becoming an accreditation agency in which instructors can apply and be accredited or not. It's an interesting new idea. I don't know all the instructors, but the ones I do know are instructors for several different agencies and "losing" the CDS will not make much difference in terms of being able to teach and certify.

How about cave divers themselves? As a student, being trained by a CDS accredited instructor, I'd like a sticker on my c-card that says so. Like the abe davis sticker for example. In this case, I get a c-card from NACD (for example), and my CDS accredited instructor then adds a sticker from the NSS-CDS.

I can see agencies encouraging their instructors to "submit" to the CDS accreditation process (whatever that may be) in order to bolster their own profits.

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[SuPrBuGmAn]

Chris, agree with you, and Brett 100%.

I believe the NSS-CDS is already the gold standard. Do you know how many TDI, IANTD, NASE & PADI instructors I know who's sole goal for this year and the years beyond is to become an NSS-CDS instructor? I can tell you at the very least my name is on that list. I can also tell you that when students come to me for class, they want an NSS-CDS card. Say what you will, but instructors and students and future students in the US know that the NSS-CDS is the most respected cave diving agency and a lot want to be a part of it.

I don't think I've ever in my life heard of anyone turning down an instructor for one who will issue a CDS card. Never really knew any instructors who are holding their crossovers to the CDS above any of the many other agency crossovers they've done.

In my experience, CDS as a training agency within the last decade or so... is just another acronym in a big ole pile of acronyms available to anyone.


I do believe they should be the gold standard, always have due to their past, but have never thought of them in current times as that gold standard. To the point where I could have gotten CDS cards from one of my instructors and just didn't bother, as it meant nothing over the for-profit agency's card I did get issued.

I truly believe, with this fresh BOD, there will be some new thinking and forward progress all around. Its why I re-joined.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I like the idea of the NSS-CDS NOT being a certification agency. I like the idea of it becoming an accreditation agency in which instructors can apply and be accredited or not. It's an interesting new idea. I don't know all the instructors, but the ones I do know are instructors for several different agencies and "losing" the CDS will not make much difference in terms of being able to teach and certify.

How about cave divers themselves? As a student, being trained by a CDS accredited instructor, I'd like a sticker on my c-card that says so. Like the abe davis sticker for example. In this case, I get a c-card from NACD (for example), and my CDS accredited instructor then adds a sticker from the NSS-CDS.

I can see agencies encouraging their instructors to "submit" to the CDS accreditation process (whatever that may be) in order to bolster their own profits.

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This is good stuff!

[cerich]

Thanks.

Let's address the revenue stream the Instructors bring to the CDS

I just counted 39 Instructors...l have no idea what the annual Instructor dues are but would be shocked it's more than $150 a year. So dues account for $5,850 a year.

Lets say these 39 folks each manage to certify two dozen divers a year ( I would be surprised if that was the case), that's 936 divers. A c-card from the majors is about $17, lots of margin so lets say after expnse the CDS makes $14 per card. That is $13, 104 dollar profit there. From what i heard at the annual meeting, books lose money but let's say the CDS makes another $2,000 per year profit selling books for teh CDS Instructors.

Total is just shy of $21,000 in profit for the CDS.

I could be way off of course, these are back of envelope calculations. I "guess" I am probably too high by half.

I TRULY believe that there is many ways to replace that revenue, it is not that much.

Chris, all the good things I hear about your product reflect in my opinion of you. I've seen your recall stuff and that just raised my opinion. However, I feel your process isn't really workable.

If the CDS is out of the C card business they lose a revenue stream. More people want C cards than want a card from an instructor who has a special blessing. CDS would have zero leverage to get the other agencies to abide by a standard and zero value to a cave instructor to be blessed. Meanwhile we would have lost that revenue stream.

I would counter by taking your idea in a different direction. What if CDS did the work to evaluate/upgrade its instructors, to create a top shelf training program, to analyze student challenges and continually upgrade it's training programs to reflect best practice and accident analysis? What if we did set the standard with our own card and actually figured out how to market the value to a student? Something like "Our students aren't the ones dieing in caves." would get attention.

By staying out of the recreational card business we avoid a lot of competition from the major agencies. It becomes a matter of profitability for them to spin up an entire subdivision that serves a marginal market. If CDS members are the ones doing exploration, writing papers, and actually marketing their activities we become the standard a student wants.

I deeply feel most of our issues are marketing and self-regulation. And I'm only taking the opinions of others on the latter; I'm not an instructor and don't know more than half a dozen cave instructors. All of them are good, in my book.

Leam

[cerich]

Great ideas!

I like the idea of the NSS-CDS NOT being a certification agency. I like the idea of it becoming an accreditation agency in which instructors can apply and be accredited or not. It's an interesting new idea. I don't know all the instructors, but the ones I do know are instructors for several different agencies and "losing" the CDS will not make much difference in terms of being able to teach and certify.

How about cave divers themselves? As a student, being trained by a CDS accredited instructor, I'd like a sticker on my c-card that says so. Like the abe davis sticker for example. In this case, I get a c-card from NACD (for example), and my CDS accredited instructor then adds a sticker from the NSS-CDS.

I can see agencies encouraging their instructors to "submit" to the CDS accreditation process (whatever that may be) in order to bolster their own profits.

skip

[Superlyte27]

I'm a member because I want the NSS-CDS to be the best training agency out there. I wanted a voice. And I want to contribute to something I believe in. If the NSS-CDS isn't going to be a training agency, it's unlikely I'll be a member and pretty likely I'll quit motivating my students to get membership.

I can be patient. I'm interested in seeing how this all shakes out.

[cerich]

Please believe me, this is NOT about the quality of the CDS instructors, it's about a bigger vision and hopefully a bigger role for CDS instructors. On that will reach more people, conserve and open more caves, foster more scientific study and ultimately save more lives and the association itself.

I'm a member because I want the NSS-CDS to be the best training agency out there. I wanted a voice. And I want to contribute to something I believe in. If the NSS-CDS isn't going to be a training agency, it's unlikely I'll be a member and pretty likely I'll quit motivating my students to get membership.

I can be patient. I'm interested in seeing how this all shakes out.

[Jont]

Thanks.

Let's address the revenue stream the Instructors bring to the CDS

I just counted 39 Instructors...l have no idea what the annual Instructor dues are but would be shocked it's more than $150 a year. So dues account for $5,850 a year.

Lets say these 39 folks each manage to certify two dozen divers a year ( I would be surprised if that was the case), that's 936 divers. A c-card from the majors is about $17, lots of margin so lets say after expnse the CDS makes $14 per card. That is $13, 104 dollar profit there. From what i heard at the annual meeting, books lose money but let's say the CDS makes another $2,000 per year profit selling books for teh CDS Instructors.

Total is just shy of $21,000 in profit for the CDS.

I could be way off of course, these are back of envelope calculations. I "guess" I am probably too high by half.

I TRULY believe that there is many ways to replace that revenue, it is not that much.

Chris,

Based on what other agencies charge you are WAY low, I'm not sure but I think its more like 400 per year, again not sure.

While 20K isnt much, its significant to an orginization and NFP like the CDS.

How much gets kicked up to the NSS?

Now dont get me wrong if I am forced to keep my membership active to dive certain sites I will because if they're smart enough to put themselves in that position good for them