YES!
NO!
You deserve to die for suggesting this!
Yes, the counsel associated with the instructor insurance company recommended not to publish the standards. Besides, anyone can look at the standards. All they have to do is ask an instructor to show them, just not give out any copy, paper, or electronic. Perhaps the reason should be revisited.Originally Posted by Jont
Leave it to the legal beavers to muddy up the mess. It's not like that if there is a law suit they wouldn't be subpoenaed, analyzed and digested ad infinitum anyway.
An independent diver.
We typically think of the CDS in relation to Cow,Cathedral,School,and Alachua,but the CDS has played a key role in some other caves. For example,the CDS played a role in facilitating the opening of Emerald with negotiating an access policy with park management,and raising funds to build the steps. The CDS played a role in the opening of Indian,in addition to providing support to the access plan,but provided gold line,and provided the original map. There are some other things that people are unaware of. When Little River closed inorder to have construction done at the site,there was some issue about reopening to cave diving. CDS leadership was there to talk to the county and assure opening. On a side note about Little River,when there was a fatality at Royal,and there was a threat to sue the county,in which case there was a threat by the county to close cave diving to Royal and Little River,there were some people from the CDS that helped. When Madison was sold by the Bruics,and it traded hands between people who were leasing the site,CDS leadership was there to talk to them about keeping access. Jackson Blue was once under threat of access being negotiated away to exclusive access by one group. Two representatives from the CDS went to Jackson Co Sheriff Johnny Mac,and made sure this didn't happen.
The CDS has maintained a role in cave conservation,and in some areas are the leaders. For example they published a detailed phamplet on cave conservation specifics,and had it left at dive sites and shops,especially state parks,also this phamplet was translated into several languages to accomodate visitors from other countries. One thing I was proud the CDS did was when the training standards were being revised,they increased the conservation requirements. Instead of the standard conservation lecture,there is a requirement for in water conservation review,and built into the post dive debrief. Nothing like conservation awareness at the time of the dive versus in a classroom. The CDS has been proactive in conservation with educational outreach,but there is more that can be done,and needs to be done. The CDS has a conservation committee that can always use volunteers and help. In reference to water conservation,the CDS helped with the spray field issue in Tallahassee by asking for letter writing campaign. Also,a lot of work has been done to address agricultural pollution issues with regard to Cathedral's water source.I realize that it is a voluntary organization, but I think they really need to become much more pro-active in cave conservation, i. e. Saving the aquifers before the caves become too polluted to dive. If the CDS wants to continue as an educational organization, then perhaps the courses should be more demanding and much more emphasis on the cave environment.
"Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick
Forrest,answered this,but I will add more gravity. Counsel said,if you want insurance,you will not publish the standards. This discussion has occurred several times in threads here and TDS,and each time the answer has been anybody can see the standards,but it must be with an instructor.
"Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick
Kelly is that the counsel for the CDS or the Insurance agency? Because unless I am mistaken the CDS does NOT partner with a underwriter offer instructor liability insurance to the CDS Instructors. That makes me have to ask, what is it about the standards that would cause an underwriter to decline insurance if the standards were published (if the CDS were to seek it)? Or is it because the instructors have insurance thru other agencies/underwriters and the CDS standards do not meet the requirements that those entities lay out as far as what is acceptable teaching methods, skills, forms etc in order to have the insurance be in force.
When I was a rep for a training agency we ran into issues where different underwriters would decide that a particular agency had standards that did not meet their policy requirements and they made it very clear. The instructor was still "insured" when teaching the other agency course, but only so far as the standards of the agency the insurance broker was partnered with were followed. That extended to waivers, medicals etc., not just in water activities. So let's say you were a agency "A" and a agency "B" Instructor and bought your insurance thru agency "A". You teach a agency B class and agency B does NOT require you to have a docs sign off on students over age 45. Student has massive stroke while diving and afterwards come to find (big shock) the student lied on his medical. Spouse of moron student sues, insurance company asks to see the medical signed off by the doc and you say I didn't do one because standards didn't call for it. Except that when you bought insurance you agreed to follow agency A standards which do call for it and you are now screwed.
I really think that if what you wrote was a true statement , namely "Counsel said,if you want insurance,you will not publish the standards" then there is a problem that frankly the counsel sees... but without the ability to get the CDS to change the standards to not be an issue he has no choice but to recommend they be kept secret. The reason to only allow showing to a student is class is to avoid liability if a student is failed for not meeting a standard and the student claims the standard was not presented to him/her.
Sorry folks, I think the approach is wrong on this.
Chris Richardson
Counsel for insurance company
"Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick
So the CDS does offer Insurance to their instructors... Strange that training agencies don't all take that view and that most have no issue with people seeing standards.
I honestly don't understand why everything need to be a state secret regarding how the CDS operates. It screams that the board and culture of the organization thinks we are something dry cavers see...mushrooms. I will be happy to explain that reference.
Chris Richardson
That is not what Kelly said. There is one company that does sell insurance to NSS-CDS instructors, but it is not associated with the NSS-CDS. The board this year is totally new, so don't hold them responsible for actions of previous boards
i won't. So basically regarding insurance the CDS is taking recommendations from a lawyer who is working for a insurance company that the CDS itself has no business relationship with. Well that makes it better...not.That is not what Kelly said. There is one company that does sell insurance to NSS-CDS instructors, but it is not associated with the NSS-CDS. The board this year is totally new, so don't hold them responsible for actions of previous boards
Chris Richardson
Dude, relax... it's just not important.
The insurance company says, "we'll be able to more easily insure your instructors if you don't post your standards for all the public to view, except by request from an instructor". OKAY! FINE! THANKS FOR THE ADVICE...
Hey, guess what...
If you want the standards, go to an NSS-CDS instructor and he'll gladly show them to you. Dude, this is a non-issue. They are available, they are even conveniently available. I'm sorry that it twists your panties that it's not available online instantly at your immediate convenience. Life isn't fair. Deal with it.
In all the things that matter, and are important. This isn't one of them.
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