Driving Directions to Dive Sites

[Shadowjack]

( THE FOLLOWING IS SILLY, PLEASE READ IT AS SUCH )

**************** DIVE BUFORD SPRING!! **************
It's the "second largest cavern" in Florida, and the viz is 100
Feet plus right now... To get there, go to...blah blah blah blah....


So 2000 people just read about Buford Spring. 100 say that would be a neat dive, look at how huge, clear and gorgeous it is and consider it. 20 ( if that many ) actually decide to do the dive. They hump their gear down the 1/4 mile road and another 200 yards of bug and snake infested swamp. They are rewarded with a great dive. Additionally, they learn from

http://www.tampaboating.com/sections...stem.asp?ID=10

that the best way to enter the system is via the south end near the cypress tree so as not to harm the cave entrance or cloud the visibility. Yeah, that sounds like a ton of people trashing a cave doesn't it?
This isn't simply about access, it is about taking over where your training leaves off. Giving a community that embraces explorers and not hordes the "good sites" for themselves. It teaches them the aspects of systems that they might not otherwise know unless they somehow find the "right" person with all the "info". In short, by providing more RELEVANT information does it not make it safer for the system?

As far as some guided systems. I love the idea of having to pay (food or gas or food that gives gas, and yes I HAVE done it. ) for someone to review my skills. The fact that I am certified Full Cave and am a "some what" active cave diver doesn't mean squat does it. I did 6 cave dives this past week, and on 2 of them I got to show a new guy ( experienced cave diver just new to these sites ) two new sites. On another dive I was ( my opinion ) being checked out by ( my opinion again ) a senior cave diver, we went to the end of the line in upstream Eagles Nest - hellofa check out dive eh? So does this mean I need a guided for every new cave dive that I've never done before or do I need guidance on a dive that I've never done before?

What Walters web site is trying to do is give guidance on sites- Lets say that I'm coming down from Ohio and I've been reading about Buford on the Walters site, It would show me that 10 people have dove it this past week and that there is someone putting line in it last night ( yes last light no joke ) It would also allow me to contact someone who's been diving it to give me guidance on diving it.

OK, way too long... and not funny enough

Dive Safe and have fun (in the order)
Eric

[Cindy]

First Eric, Not all guided dives have guides you have to pay for. Alachua and Hart will cost you a phone call and dive site fees. The guides are there at the request of the land owners and to protect the cave not evaluate you. I don't quite see how you came up with that one! None of those sites would be open without the guides and here you are bad mouthing them. I offered that only as an option and a way I found my best mentor.
How about I do a nice site, we list the pool you have in your back yard. How your wife looks and the best way to access your house when your gone? 200 people will laugh, 20 will drive by and look and one jerk will be out in your pool tomorrow!
Using the example of people coming from out of town is exactly one of the reasons I hate to see a site like this. Usually they don't know the lay out, don't know the people and don't have the skills that need practiced in caves. To expect a diver who dives two weeks a year to come down here and dive a fragile cave well is just silly. Eagles nest is not exactly fragile as you know. I do find it interesting that you push the end of the line on your first dive in a system. New teaching methods I guess, I wasn't taught to cave that way. Speaking of Buford Sink, last time I heard it was closed because of archelogical preservation attempts being made on the original wood road around it. I didn't see that mentioned on the site. Odd since you say the site is so accurate.
I like Paul Deloaches dive book. It lists sites for people and how to get there. They are pubic sites. What you are suggesting is EVERY site regaurdless of ownership, skill level and experience be opened up for you to try out. Being full cave does not mean you have learned all you need to know about cave diving. Thank you for making my point. Cindy

[Kelly Jessop]

I like Paul Deloaches dive book.

I betcha "Uncle" Paul appreciates the mention,but for the Amazon.com people they need to search his distant relation Ned DeLoach.

I have to agree with your rationale to some degree. The same concerns you mention is why some explorers have two maps. One with passages for the general cave diving community,and one with passages that can't handle regular traffic,and this map is never published.

[Cindy]

I need spelling lessons! Thanks Kelly. It's sad that the old timers feel that way. I can see why though. Too bad people can't just have more common sence and have some clue about their own abilities. Unfortunatly with Web sites like the one we are talking about it's not just caves that will suffer but more accidents, more site closures and a greater chance of outsiders limiting what we as cave divers can do. Just what we need is more laws about and against cave diving because an opportunity is given to people who will try to sneak dive sites, not get land owner permission, not find out about the cave before diving it etc. No web site can really prep you for that kind of stuff. Later, Cindy

[Walter Pickel]

Speaking of Buford Sink, last time I heard it was closed because of archelogical preservation attempts being made on the original wood road around it.

Cindy,

Just as an FYI you are incorrect about Buford Spring (Sink). According Victor Echavez, the Chassahowitzka Wildlife Management Area Manager, Buford Spring (as well as all other water bodies in the WMA) are open to dive. Additionally, they are open to ANY diver that wants to dive them (no permit needed). Yes that includes Eagle's Nest, Gator Siphon, Green Canyon (Blind Creek Canyon), Buford Siphon, Gator Hole, and others. However, you cannot drive on roads where it is stated that you cannot. Just thought you (and everyone else should know that) should know that. I am curious where you came up with your information Buford. Knowing sources of inaccurate information is helpful.

Additionally, after reviewing Eric's post I did not see where he stated that this was his first time in the Nest. Where did you see that?

Thanks again for your opinions. Learning how people feel is critical to promoting good tools for divers.

[Walter Pickel]

Unfortunatly with Web sites like the one we are talking about it's not just caves that will suffer but more accidents, more site closures and a greater chance of outsiders limiting what we as cave divers can do.

How is my site any different than the other sites that are out there with respect to the alegation of it will cause accidents and site closures?

[MikeH]

Cindy,

Your post is insulting on so many levels that I'm just not going to justify it with a legitimate reply. You sure seem to have read a lot in my post that simply wasn't there.

Mike

Being snubbed by some divers in public obviously didn't hurt you or you wouldn't still be diving. From what I can tell very few mentors are found hanging out at the steps of Ginnie. Maybe some, but it's not common. Most of the mentors I found were through involvement in teams, going to workshops, being guided at caves, calling them on the phone or having a mutual friend introduce me. As you can tell all those things require some effort. It seems your point here is that you should be able to post cave sites and directions (I take it to every site you can find out about) because you don't want to deal with having to work for something. You want to just be able to get on a web site and take off. What I see written into that is you don't care about the caves or the land owner wishes. All you want to do is go dive and it should be easy for you. Correct me if I am wrong. Do you care if these caves get torn up? Many of these caves are very fragile. Is the ease of your personal enjoyment so important that sites should be closed because people are bothered who don't want divers on there land, people get hurt because they are not ready to be there? What is wrong with doing a little legwork? I asked a man lately about a site near Spring Hill I had seen posted about. I was told that the landowner was just now allowing people in and once a waiver was done he would let people know they could dive. I backed off diving there. I could have just jumped in and not given a fig about others but I didn't. Just because we have a tool like the internet doesn't mean we have to use it. When we do use the web why can't it be use with some morality and wisdom? Cindy Butler

[normblitch]

Does anyone still have a Copy of the gray paper-back "Springs of FL" book?

I do Norm. It's the Florida Geological Survey (FGS) Geological Bulletin No. 31, Springs of Florida, dated 1947. I also have the FGS Report of Investigations No. 39., Reconnaissance of Springs and Sinks in West Central Florida, dated 1965.

Back when I was in grad school at the Univ. of Georgia in the early '70s, I was trying to make my masters thesis relate somehow to the springs and sinks of Florida. Unfortunately, I failed and had to move to a much more boring topic. But in doing the preliminary work, I accumulated some of these types of reference material.

Donn

Yep, that's it...we wore the Bejeebers out of those back then...also you mention the "Sinks and Deep Lakes" tome...I had heard about it anecdotally, but never actually espyed a copy!

Norm

[normblitch]

Does anyone still have a Copy of the gray paper-back "Springs of FL" book?

I do Norm. It's the Florida Geological Survey (FGS) Geological Bulletin No. 31, Springs of Florida, dated 1947. I also have the FGS Report of Investigations No. 39., Reconnaissance of Springs and Sinks in West Central Florida, dated 1965.

Back when I was in grad school at the Univ. of Georgia in the early '70s, I was trying to make my masters thesis relate somehow to the springs and sinks of Florida. Unfortunately, I failed and had to move to a much more boring topic. But in doing the preliminary work, I accumulated some of these types of reference material.

Donn

Donn,

PM sent...

nhb

[Shadowjack]

Ahaa where to start…where to start…..humm

1. This thread is “ Driving Directions to Dive Sites “ and it’s about http://www.tampaboating.com/sections...ve_systems.asp
Not about Guides or Eric if we need to talk about them lets start a new thread.

2. Could someone tell me what’s the difference between
floridacaves.com
tfn.net/springs/
mejeme.com/dive/index.html
treasuresites.com/members/wcf.htm
dep.state.fl.us/geology/geologictopics/springs/bulletin66.htm

and Walter’s web site?

Besides driving directions ( which is now gone )and lay out there is only one BIG thing I see and that I think is great…. People can post reports on each dive site, so others can see and get in contact with that diver with questions if the have some. ( where do you think Walter got most of his information from? )

3. If someone has set their mind on doing something their going to do it, no matter if it’s right, wrong or safe. So if 2 buddies want to dive site X ( they dove it with a guide 3 times last month )and the only time they can dive it is Wednesday night because they have to drive back north the next day and there are no guides available , they’ve got the mix, tables and everything else ready what are they going to do? ( just about everyone that read that is thinking sneak dive now )

But WAIT! They just happen to read Walter’s site and see that someone posted two days ago that the vis in Site X is 1-3 feet and they decide not to dive it now.

Walter you need to take down your web site, not only does it educate, give current information, guidance and promote safety- the background color sucks!

Dive Safe and have fun (in the order)
Eric

BTW- I’ve NEVER done a guided cave dive with out a guide with me. That was my FIRST dive in Eagles Nest to the end of the line ( not the first dive there ) and Sunday will be the Second time to the end of the line – warm up dives for putting line in back there with BH.