Driving Directions to Dive Sites

[Walter Pickel]

I am in a quandary. I have added a feature to my site where when you click the county that a system is located in, I show a Yahoo map with all the sites for that county. It also will provide the user with driving directions to those sites (if possible).

What does everyone think about this feature? It seems that a lot of people are afraid that if a location is published then everyone and their brother will be rushing out there to dive it. Well, we have been pretty vocal about Little Salt and have yet to find another venturesome soul out there (Michael McDonald did brave this system and has been a great support of our work there -- as well as the NACD!). I don't really think that the theory of herds of cavers attacking lesser dove systems holds water.

I am looking for opinions....

Example: Hernando County Cave List

*Note: Yahoo is finicky sometimes and will report a line 1, position 54 error. It is a false error and you can just refresh the page. There is no position 54 in line 1 (by specification).


I look forward to your comments.

[Tegg]

I like it, but I don't.

I have always been for "sharing" knowledge, being that I have been involved in many projects of the internet to "spread" the wealth...

Then again, where is the "reward" in cavediving anymore? There has always been "levels" of caves in the cavediving community. (this was described by MANY of the 'old cavers' that I have talked to).

You first learned to cave dive by diving with several different established cave divers over a period of time. They would take you to certain caves where your training could improve and yet you could also be relatively safe. As one got to be a better and better cavediver, they would find out about the next "level" of caves. Usually to their surprise since they had not even heard of some of them. They would then increase their skillset knowing that there were yet more caves to be dove once they achieved the needed skills and expierence. Kind of a "reward" system if you want to call it that.

Even with the flood of information online about caves and cavediving I personally have noticed that this "reward" system still seems to exist to some extent. There is alot of information online, and yet I am surprised by how much still is not online, thankfully.

There are some systems that I have dove which if listed, may invite a cave diver that might not be ready to deal with the fragile nature, and possible situations that may arise from the systems. It should stay that way....

Directions posted to the "normal" caves seem not to bother me, but there are those "jewels" out there that should remain precious. Left to be shown to a cavediver as he/she climbs the "ranks" and moves up the ladder of expierence.

Just a word from a maturing cavediver who enjoys the beauty of the caves just as much as the dive itself when seeing virgin passage.

[Walter Pickel]

Tegg,

I greatly appreciate your comments and I think you and I are on the same page. However, Eric and I (and Brett and Jitka somewhat) have discussed this "people herding to fragile systems and destroying them" but it just doesn't seem a solid theory.

I started this because there seems to be so much more to dive "down here" than "up there". Albeit, it is a different kind of diving. But "down here" information is seemingly very closely held. However, the real reason was although there was information out there it was awkward (TO ME) and I being the somewhat geeky kind of person I am (sometimes) I decided to make something that worked for ME and a few diving buddies. However, I am very happy to see others using it as a reference. I want to get to te point where we are adding NEW information on OLD systems. We will see how the fall goes.

I think the most exciting part of the site so far is the cave conditions reports. However, I do understand that regardless not too many are going to report dives in Green Canyon (noticeably missing from my list), etc.

What changes in the site would make it more palatable to you?

THANKS!

[Tegg]

Tegg,

What changes in the site would make it more palatable to you?

THANKS!

Maybe just skip the detailed driving directions to some sites... let people explore to find it on their own... you know, the old fashion way... GPS unit and some good mud clothes...

[Webmaster]

In the caving community locations are typically held closer to the vest these days. In the '60's and '70's a number of states published collections of cave locations. A number of those show the effects from that, broken formations, spraypaint etc... .

Of course anyone with a maglite and a cooler full of beer can walk or crawl into an air filled cave. And both casual and dedicated cavers FAR outnumber cave divers, but the point is that publishing locations can and has had an effect on specific caves.

Once the genie is out, if you change your mind, you can't put it back in the bottle.

Many state surveys have a membership based system in that only members have access to location data. To join you must have several members vouch for you. You go caving with folks for a while first and they get a chance to see that you aren't a formation collecting, bat smashing jerk off.

[Gary]

It seems that a lot of people are afraid that if a location is published then everyone and their brother will be rushing out there to dive it.

In the interests of preventing damage to any passages not yet mutilated I seldom mention anything off the beaten path in an open forum. I take individuals I feel are up to the task and see how they perform. If they do well I'll take them someplace even better - if they beat the place up I don't.

There's no way to do that with internet directions.

Well, we have been pretty vocal about Little Salt and have yet to find another venturesome soul out there

Last I heard someone mentioned it - and then someone else said it was closed. Is it open?

[Walter Pickel]

Last I heard someone mentioned it - and then someone else said it was closed. Is it open?

It is open via SWFWMD permit only. If you dive it without the permit you can get fined. My list does state that it is permit only though.

I am thinking about removing the directions but I am reluctant to remove GPS coordinates, TOPO maps, etc.

[Walter Pickel]

In the caving community locations are typically held closer to the vest these days. In the '60's and '70's a number of states published collections of cave locations. A number of those show the effects from that, broken formations, spraypaint etc...

Yeah, even the Nest has its share of graffiti (Craig 2003, SCOOTER, etc.) in the ballroom.

[Kelly Jessop]

Tegg,

However, Eric and I (and Brett and Jitka somewhat) have discussed this "people herding to fragile systems and destroying them" but it just doesn't seem a solid theory.

There is some truth here. I can think of a couple of challanging tunnels in a couple of cave systems that pretty much stayed off the radar screen. Once this was publicized via trip reports,it suddenly became like the well casing at LR,everybody had to do it,and it shows the effects now.

In the dry caving community they don't publicize the caves,but once you become a member of a grotto,and show your skill level as you develop,then you gain more access. One of the reasons they don't publicize directions is the concern for vandalism and damage to land owner relations. One of the dangers of putting detailed directions to the cave systems on the internet,is it will give other groups who you may not want there the ability to find these places. For example,artifact hunters know that indian artifacts are at springs/sinks (ever wonder about some of the big holes and erosion at Cow),this will give them the opportunity to find some places to dig.

[Shadowjack]

Walter- I can agree with the feeling that is going on here. Putting directions on the web site is making it too easy for the “ less seasoned “ cave diver which can case cause two problems, first is that the system could be damaged, second the diver could get hurt which could lead to a lot more problems…. Most divers on this list from what I can tell believe in a “ right of passage “ when it comes to the non tourist cave systems ( sorry to use that term ). I would hate to see someone use a driving map to Little Salt, jump in and try to dive it just after they finished cave class.

Everyone- The big idea behind Walter’s web site is communication for all of us, if he took off the GPS, Location maps. I wouldn’t be upset. I like the idea of the cave system being listed and that YOU can post a report / conditions on it. So lets say that you we were just looking at his site and see that Cave System X was listed, you can read some back ground on it and maybe see a cave map of it but the best part is that there section on it for YOUR input on it, now you can see that John Doe dove it last week and said the vis was great. YOU can now email John Doe and ask him about it, John can tell you not to dive it because the lines are broken in there or that he’s diving it again this weekend and if you want to join him come on over – here’s how to find the site!

Well all know that cave divers have their own little groups that dive their own little area. All Walter is doing is trying to help the cave diving community communicate a little bit better.

Then again, who am I….

Be safe and have fun diving ( in that order )
Eric