Planning a scooter dive to Heinkel restriction for very first time ...

[FW]

I don't think the "swim it before you scooter it" rule means you have to swim 3000'. It means you swim 1000' on a dive. Next dive, scooter in to 1000', drop the scooter, swim another 1000'. Rinse, repeat, leap frog in, until you're where you want to be, but have taken your time swimming the length of the cave (just not all one dive). Remember why it is you're doing this stuff....to see cave you haven't seen? Then take your time and see the cave. You won't see the same cave on a scooter you see swimming.

That is exactly what "swim it first" really means. Plus keeping good records of gas consumption for various legs. Usually, someone would probably have already swum the first 1000' or so. I had swum about 2000' before scootering in Devil's Eye.

[sebaworld]

Sounds fun to first do a scooter dive to dog leg, then a few around insulation room, stage/scooter to river intrusion, sweet surprise, main land jump and bear room...scooter in and swim out, swim in and scooter out, refine your swimming out gas calcs, enjoy the cave...

Where is exactly that "dog leg" checked few maps found and can't locate it ?
Also I can't find the second part of the map beyond 1800 ft on the gold line ...

[sebaworld]

Are you going solo? If not, one stage and one scooter each would be safe, assuming your SAC is good enough. To be safe solo, then either 2 scooters, or 2 stages, but not both, unless you are practicing for a bigger dive in the future. I don't drop the stage going the Henkel, I breathe it the whole time.

Nope, I'm going team of two / three but one is rebreather so will have to figure out smart team bailout ... I guess that complicates few things ? not as much for me but rebreather guy.

[sebaworld]

Excellent point!

If you aren't already familiar with stage bottle rock as a stage drop point you've got a LOT of cave between stage bottle rock and the Hinkle you should cover and get familiar with before going to the Hinkle.

The "doing it as a swim dive first" thumb rule is mostly about knowing the cave and understanding the gas requirements you need to get out. While I'm impressed with the people that actually did it as a swim dive there comes a point where it ceases to be reasonable to swim dive some places first. Fortunately with the main passage being fairly obvious and the gold line getting lost down a side passage on the way back isn't too much of an issue - assuming your primary light is working.

If you didn't know the cave back there and you lost your primary it would be a scary confusing slow trip out on a backup light. Haven't been back there in a couple years but I can remember problems trying to scooter coming out on a backup light. Some of the black walls and protrusions could be well camouflaged on a backup light and you could scooter strait into a solid wall. I took to bringing a backup primary when I was back there.

My first trip to the Hinkle someone had left a false horror arm stuck out from under a rock looking like a dead body in a cave collapse.

There was a perfect dive report from a bunch of years ago for your questions. Moonfuzzy's first trip to the Hinkle. There were 3 of us and when we got to the Hinkle her scooter imploded.

Practically the ideal "what if the first time you go to the Hinkle" scenario.

But there were 3 of us and she already knew the cave so it was a simple, by the book, exit. One of us towed her and one of us carried the scooter. Ended up dropping the scooter at stage bottle rock to pick up the next day (flooded scooter was heavy and unbalancing - exhausting and costing gas). Her wrist was also injured slightly in the implosion.

The complete story might be on the forum somewhere still (accident reports forum I would think) though I couldn't find it.


More gas is usually better but if you are thinking multi stages you are "probably" over complicating things. You should definitely have a better clue to your gas needs and exit planning then some advice off the internet.

part funny and part stressful but I guess it was a good learning experience that makes us better divers

[FW]

Nope, I'm going team of two / three but one is rebreather so will have to figure out smart team bailout ... I guess that complicates few things ? not as much for me but rebreather guy.

Two 80s would be more than enough bailout. Two 40s would be marginal, unless he had a great OW SAC rate.

[Dsix36]

Two 80s would be more than enough bailout. Two 40s would be marginal, unless he had a great OW SAC rate.

RB bailout from 3000
4ATA at a swim rate of 50 fpm = 60 minutes of 4xSAC
even with a SAC of .5 that works out to 120cf without stress or CO2
2 - 80's is cutting it too close for my comfort
I plan 1 - 80 per 1000 foot of penetration

But that is just me!

[jj1987]

Nope, I'm going team of two / three but one is rebreather so will have to figure out smart team bailout ... I guess that complicates few things ? not as much for me but rebreather guy.

This should be simple

Sac * ATA * (distance/exit speed) * 2 plus some conservatism should always be your bailout, OC or CCR, swimming or scootering whatever.

I don't mean this in a rude way, but have you taken any training or even mentoring on how to use scooters? I don't believe in the swim before you scooter theory-- heck there are caves I've never flipped a fin tip in, but if you can't plan a scooter dive in the most tourist of tourist caves without internet forum advice, you might want to tone it back a notch...

[sebaworld]

This should be simple

Sac * ATA * (distance/exit speed) * 2 plus some conservatism should always be your bailout, OC or CCR, swimming or scootering whatever.

I don't mean this in a rude way, but have you taken any training or even mentoring on how to use scooters? ... if you can't plan a scooter dive in the most tourist of tourist caves without internet forum advice, you might want to tone it back a notch...

Of course I can plan it, wreck penetration that I do on regular basis is similar or worse due to lots of falling stuff inside and silt to diving this cave but you for sure know that plan is plan and listening others that have done that is different and just make your plan better ...

[sebaworld]

From different story ... how big (wide, narrow ?) is that passage that let you bypass the lips ? Just out of curiosity its so close and never swam through ...
Also if you would vote for best looking room within that 2000 ft range which one that will be ? Thinking for a plan for few days of diving Ginnie.

Thanks for your time and effort giving your input.

[FW]

From different story ... how big (wide, narrow ?) is that passage that let you bypass the lips ? Just out of curiosity its so close and never swam through ...
Also if you would vote for best looking room within that 2000 ft range which one that will be ? Thinking for a plan for few days of diving Ginnie.

Thanks for your time and effort giving your input.

Not big enough to scooter through. A very tight fit for backmount, easy sidemount.

You can get a nice map of Devil's at Ginnie, and some other N FL cave shops.