Indian is closed?

[harmstrong]

I agree switching back and forth can have its ups and downs. My point is at not diving cause of limitations. Being here in the county, it seems the more people refrain from diving sites and bringing forth valid concerns of limitations, the more the restrictions remain in place. In the conversation with Lesley it was mentioned scooters were to be revisited at Emerald and CC after a year. This hasn't happened because people would rather just not dive and with that the issue fades away. I send proposals to the state and Feds all the time. One or two won't get anything accomplished but many from different folks will start the wheels turning in those agencies.

I know CCR was never off the list at both state sites. That was the perception left by a certain resident who boycotted those sites over other reasons. He boycotts Indian over CCR restrictions. While I understand not wanting to dive OC after spending the money and time on CCR, I don't see it being an all out reason to not dive at all. I don't know you or you diving habits so don't take what I say personally but rather an invitation to push your point of view to the people who make decisions and get some changes in place that suit your desires. While the CDF is good for venting and a little information here and there. It won't likely meet eye contact with the right people. Trust me I have an interest I everyone diving in Wakulla County. It can be done but like I said before it takes active divers pushing the issues.

Steve,

I was a diver for many years with the WKPP. It's easy for me to "boycott" Indian since I can't dive there the way I want to, as I did a couple of hundred dives there between 1997 and 2001. I understand that my situation is a little different, and that I am hardheaded . We are more than willing to pursue these issues with "the powers that be". Unfortunately, as you correctly point out, a few voices are easily ignored (especially when there are established relationships in play), and what is really required to make change is many pushing the same agenda.

[speleodiver]

Steve,

I was a diver for many years with the WKPP. It's easy for me to "boycott" Indian since I can't dive there the way I want to, as I did a couple of hundred dives there between 1997 and 2001. I understand that my situation is a little different, and that I am hardheaded . We are more than willing to pursue these issues with "the powers that be". Unfortunately, as you correctly point out, a few voices are easily ignored (especially when there are established relationships in play), and what is really required to make change is many pushing the same agenda.

Heather,

I couldn't agree more. My point is don't stop what you love doing simply over a small inconvienance. You are correct. Small numbers means nobody bothers to look. It's truly a sad situation here with the magnitude of diving available. The biggest enemy here is not the established relationships but simply the lack of diving and lack of voice. There are by far a greater number of voices outside those established relationships. I'm open for suggestions has to getting them all together.

[Kevin Carlisle]

Is anyone checking how well the guides are diving? I've personally seen one of them crashing into the walls at Emerald(no, not you OFG :P), which is by no means a small cave.

I disagree with the guide system in place there. I've put up with it to dive at Indian, but would preffer overwhelmingly not having to deal with a guide whatsovever. Granted, I've only dived Indian with one guide, and I'd dive pretty much anywhere with him. I still don't think it should be necessary for me to HAVE to arrange diving through a guide.



Keep experience and certification prerequisites in place to keep the squirrels out. It works at Emerald/CC.

I can't agree more, if they want guides, maybe they should ne evaluated as to their abilities.

[Kelly Jessop]

I don't want to turn this into a guide v. no-guide argument--and Kelly and I have talked about that enough over the years that I'm fairly certain he knows my feelings on the issue.

Thanks Brian

I know people hate the guide system,yet at some systems it is necessary inorder to keep it open,because this is the owners requirement. All comments are focused on Indian,but why none about Diepolder? Mexico? Ironically I know a lot of people who will profess to hate having a guide,but then go to Mexico for a week,and 100% of the dives are guided,and having nothing but glowing reports of their trip. Sometimes I think a lot can depend on how a guide functions too. I've done guided dives where I follow,they lead,but my preference is I am a lead participant. If I am guiding this is what I do,I am there just like a regular dive buddy,and take a minor role in the plan.

Do cavedivers build trust with land owners? We want unrestricted access to places,but if an owner wants to limit penetration for safety reasons,will we as a group be 100% compliant? This is something as cave divers we need to consider,because it does exist,but can we do this? Why would I mention this? Many cave divers are goal driven hence why we see glory markers at certain places. Could a single team with a scooter a piece,and stage make it to the Wakulla Room or Power room at 4000+ feet back,with average depth of 130ft,and survive a scooter failure. I am sure depending on the skill level survivability would increase,but there are quite a few that would take this chance. How do we go to a land owner and guarentee this scenario would never happen???

[kensuf]

Why would I mention this? Many cave divers are goal driven hence why we see glory markers at certain places. Could a single team with a scooter a piece,and stage make it to the Wakulla Room or Power room at 4000+ feet back,with average depth of 130ft,and survive a scooter failure. I am sure depending on the skill level survivability would increase,but there are quite a few that would take this chance. How do we go to a land owner and guarentee this scenario would never happen???

Just re-quoting this.

Indian's a special place, and is one of the best dives in the 'Duh, but deserves some respect.

[Benthic]

<snip>
All comments are focused on Indian,but why none about Diepolder? Mexico?
<snip>

It was not my intention to pick on, or single out Indian. I simply confined my comments to Indian because, with new lease holders in place, there may be an opportunity to re-negotiate the access policy and make it more reasonable.

As you say there are other places that operate with guide systems. I oppose those too, and for similar reasons. I have no issue with a guide. I have an issue with being *required* to take a guide.

Brian

[jj1987]

Could a single team with a scooter a piece,and stage make it to the Wakulla Room or Power room at 4000+ feet back,with average depth of 130ft,and survive a scooter failure. I am sure depending on the skill level survivability would increase,but there are quite a few that would take this chance. How do we go to a land owner and guarentee this scenario would never happen???

The only way I know to guarantee this won't happen is to set rules on what reserves need to be. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with having a goal to do this dive as long as the divers bring 2 stages (a little over 65min of gas, 125ft/min) and don't touch back gas while towing a scooter.

There's no good reason to try swimming out of low flow deep(ish) caves this big. If we want to instill confidence in ourselves with the landowner why not be up front with what we'll commit to?