They should have Edd on speed dial !
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They should have Edd on speed dial !
Ken, thanks for posting this - it's important that the disposition of the charge of assault is known.Originally Posted by Ken Hill
It's called "ethics", and in contrast to pseudo training in ethics that just talks about following rules, regulations and laws (the kind of training I am required to endure annually in government, despite teaching real ethics classes at the college level) learning to make ethical decisions and act ethically requires the study and examination of how to make the right decision for the good of all involved when rules come into conflict, meaning no matter what you choose to do or not do, a rule, law or tenet will be broken.
That was the basis of the judge's use of the analogy of pushing someone out of the way of an on coming truck - sure a law was broken and the plaintiff was "assaulted" in the strict legal sense of the word, but that "assault" achieved the far greater good of protecting her life as well as protecting the lives of the students she recklessly endangered. Ethically speaking that is a complete no brainer of a decision.
It bothers me that you'd even give pause in that situation and weigh only the risk of a legal charge to yourself, a charge that would almost certainly be dismissed. Sure, there will always be come risk in saving others, legally or otherwise, however the thing to consider is whether you would be willing to live with yourself if you did nothing and let people die, especially when the risk is comparatively low or is just legal (and non life threatening) in nature.
Concealed carry is another area where the risk of arrest is high in the event you actually use a firearm in self defense. In VA for example, it's an affirmative defense, so an initial arrest and charge is virtually guaranteed if you shoot someone in self defense or in defense of others, but most people would still defend themselves, and hopefully someone else from an assailant with a knife or gun. I'd have given everything, including my life, to have been in the right spot at the right time with a gun to prevent at least some of the tragedy that occurred yesterday in CT, even though I would have been clearly violating a "gun free zone". That's what ethics is about, it has very little to do with just following rules.
In the above mentioned example of the OW instructor guiding OW students on a traverse from the eye to the ear, there are at least two reasonable options and one not so reasonable option:
1) physically turn and remove the instructor (and her students) from the cave;
2) shadow them through the traverse, running a line, ensuring the OW instructor properly navigates through the traverse and in the event she does not, putting the students on the line, getting the instructor and directing her back out of the cave; or
3) do nothing and hope for the best.
Of the three options #1 and #2 are balancing to various degrees respecting the autonomy of the instructor (and students) to engage in a behavior that is dangerous and potentially fatal, with the concepts of beneficence (doing good for others) and non-malefesence (preventing/doing no harm to others). In #1 you would clearly be violating the hell out of Autonomy to serve the purposes of both doing good and preventing harm to others. In #2, you are trying to do good and prevent harm while not infringing on the persons' autonomy.
Number #3 is just covering your own ass at the expense of others by choosing not to use the knowledge and skills you possess to prevent harm to others. I have no respect for a person who'd make that choice - and I suspect when you actually think about it, you don't either.
Moreover, if you consider the scenarios and the many ways the situation could get out of hand, it could be readily argued that #1 is a far safer course of action, even though it violates autonomy to a greater degree. For example, I'd probably choose to turn the instructor forcefully rather than accept the potential risks involved with following along behind 7 OW divers and then try to salvage the situation after they enter, get lost in and silt out the catacombs. Getting all 7 divers out in time in that situation is doubtful. It's a lot safer to turn the instructor forcefully in a more confined, non silty, high flow area before the situation can get worse.
Personally, I could not watch that train wreck go buy and just hope for the best. Arrest me, charge me, even convict me - it's better for me than doing nothing, watching people (douches or not) die and knowing I could have prevented it. But that's just me. YMMV.
NACD Cave DPV Cert # 666: Cave DPV Anti-christ
Darn, can't get the original link to work.
The second video is funny. "Level off Dad, don't stand there". ROTF
If cave diving were Star Wars, who would be Yoda?
Firefighters have to prevent civilians from re-entering burning buildings on almost a daily basis. Usually going back to get a pet or favorite beer mug.
If they don't obey verbal orders, we use physical force and not very gently either! In 40 years I have not seen a single firefighter charged with assault for keeping a civilian out of a burning building.
Not familiar with Florida law - but isn't it tresspassing for an unequipped/untrained diver to exceed cavern zone? Is there a single cave in Florida that DOES NOT restrict diving to qualified divers?
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
She's still making excuses over on Scubaboard but she took the videos down today.
That's progress....
NACD Cave DPV Cert # 666: Cave DPV Anti-christ
She has offered to meet up with myself and some friends to discuss her and her husbands diving future. Hopefully we can talk some sense in to them and help them see the errors of their ways.
It's not the years in your life that matter, but the life in your years.
I don't care if you give pause to me not putting my hands on others, you can weigh the ethics and the ramifications all you'd like for yourself and I will dictate my own course of action. I would choose to shadow the class/group and render assistance if needed. The only way I'm putting my hands on someone is because I've considered the risks and hurting them is worth the possible outcome.
I've heard many divers pontificate about how they'd wrestle someone out of a cave and drag them to the surface and I think it's the kind of blustering crap than many folks who've never put their hands on someone would fantasize about. I've trained over 13 years in brazillian jiu jitsu and attended socom's scout swimmer program where we did some hand to hand in the water and you can end up on the losing end of that battle really quickly. Are either of you strong and trained enough to engage in that type of antic if it goes sideways?
You missed plenty of non felony options, like disabling their lights, flooding masks, blinding with lights...
I don't believe there is any law broken by ow idiots going into most caves, certainly nothing that would rise to the level of being able to detain/move them. I have no confidence that judges or juries would approve of kidnapping someone from the cave to save them. And that is only criminal charges...a civil case could easily be filed...heck, I don't have the spare money to waste it being sued.
Basically I'm pointing out that if you put your hands on someone and move them or restrict their movement that is technically kidnapping, a felony. I don't commit felonies.
James, once again kudos to you for a diplomatic manner that just might get some positive results.
There's a number of people in cyberlife that I'd hope to get a real life dive with, I'd be pleased as punch if we could get one in some day.
Ditto, that, on both sentences.
I
Semper Fi, Cameron David Smith, my son, my hero. 11/9/1989 - 11/13/2010
Never forget, we were all beginners once. Allain Burrese
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Shirley you're not serious? No, I'm not, but do stop calling me Shirley.
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