How many would dive in Wakulla County?

[harmstrong]

The Emerald committee has worked hard to streamline some processes,and fast track people who submit credentials to dive there.

Really? I just had two, very experienced friends (both of whom are recognized explorers with published research and articles on sub 300' projects worldwide) submit the paperwork for Emerald. Both got the run around from the person they submitted it to, and, once their log submissions met his "standards" they were told 2-3 weeks for the remainder of the committee to review them. That doesn't sound very streamlined to me.

[Kelly Jessop]

Really? I just had two, very experienced friends (both of whom are recognized explorers with published research and articles on sub 300' projects worldwide) submit the paperwork for Emerald. Both got the run around from the person they submitted it to, and, once their log submissions met his "standards" they were told 2-3 weeks for the remainder of the committee to review them. That doesn't sound very streamlined to me.

We don't look at whether people are accomplished,well known personalities etc,but we look at the paperwork. The standards are the same regardless of what you've done or who you are,and many times we will get people who will say their name is adequate over a log book,or their log book is a jumble where we can't figure out if there are 100 cave dives there. The simplest process is those people who submit documentation with an Abe Davis/Wakulla award because this certifies 100 cave dives,and speeds the process up. I've had someone that has submitted an excel spreadsheet of dives,and I had to sit and manually separate 30ft reef dives from post training cave divers-yes this can be time consuming. In reality we don't want to slow down the process,but get people in there diving as much as possible and as fast as possible. Why? 1) A lot of effort was undertaken to open this site and build the steps,lets use the damn place. 2) People who opposed opening Wakulla claimed we had Emerald and weren't using it. The real reason it wasn't dove was because as you are aware is that Leon sinks can go bad and stay bad for sometime. Hence when it is good we need to get the numbers up for visibility purposes. If your friends think they were treated unfairly,and the process was impeded against them,then have them please email me or PM me,because I have interest in addressing this.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Wow dude you must have some serious issues with your life to be this angry, I was just giving you the info requested.

Not angry, just calling out more of your misinformation.

Why don't you be more specific next time, instead of trying to bait me into stuff like you are right now? You asked me a question you already had the answer to. You never specified just driving right up, you said "needing a waiver or boat". I had just said easy options, I guess your definition of easy is different than mine.

They were all your specifics, actually. You're correct, I knew that you're comment(quoted again below) was complete BS.

With most other places in cave country, there are dozens of other places in the general vicinity that divers can go to if a site is blown. You don't have as many easy options (which most people want) in Wakulla county.

I knew you couldn't name a dozen places near Mayo or High Springs with easy access. It sure is fun having you list sites, in a lame attempt at meeting your own numbers, that require access specifics that you've stated yourself make them less desirable to some, as quoted below.

Most cave divers cannot meet the idiotic requirements for diving those sites and aren't going to go through the effort to fill out all the paperwork to dive at Emerald/Clearcut if they have met all the requirements...

...Yes I know there are other sites, like Church, Harvey's, and a bunch of other ones with horrible vis most of the time, but when people spend their money and drive from neighboring states, they don't want to go to those sites. They want to back the car up, unload their gear onto a bench and go enjoy a crystal clear dive, not just see the guy in front of them's fins.

Also it is ease of access, when there is a decent amount of difficultly to get to a site, a lot of people will just give up. Let me clarify to people, I don't mind it, I am expressing what I have seen and hear from others.

Ya know, stuff like the above stated. Stuff that apparently doesn't apply to sites if they are in the vicinity to Mayo and High Springs, LOL.

You never specified just driving right up, you said "needing a waiver or boat".

Again, your words, not mine.

...They want to back the car up, unload their gear onto a bench and go enjoy a crystal clear dive...

Short memory?

I guess if you consider a 1/4 mile walk on a trail a healthy walk, you may want to stop diving and start exercising more. If you don't like the answers I gave you (which were correct and there are more sites by the way) just don't continue reading what I post, it's not that hard.

Its a half mile actually, and what about a walk isn't healthy? Its a seasonal opening.

You're posting BS on a thread that matters to me, I think I'll point out any inconsistancies from the truth I feel necessary.

[jcook]

Please do school me on my BS Mat or do you only see your own logical fallacies?

I think you just have a personal issue with me and you don't have the balls to say anything.

[harmstrong]

We don't look at whether people are accomplished,well known personalities etc,but we look at the paperwork. The standards are the same regardless of what you've done or who you are,and many times we will get people who will say their name is adequate over a log book,or their log book is a jumble where we can't figure out if there are 100 cave dives there. The simplest process is those people who submit documentation with an Abe Davis/Wakulla award because this certifies 100 cave dives,and speeds the process up. I've had someone that has submitted an excel spreadsheet of dives,and I had to sit and manually separate 30ft reef dives from post training cave divers-yes this can be time consuming. In reality we don't want to slow down the process,but get people in there diving as much as possible and as fast as possible. Why? 1) A lot of effort was undertaken to open this site and build the steps,lets use the damn place. 2) People who opposed opening Wakulla claimed we had Emerald and weren't using it. The real reason it wasn't dove was because as you are aware is that Leon sinks can go bad and stay bad for sometime. Hence when it is good we need to get the numbers up for visibility purposes. If your friends think they were treated unfairly,and the process was impeded against them,then have them please email me or PM me,because I have interest in addressing this.

Neither of these people was suggesting that their name or reputation should be good enough documentation. However, Jason kept asking for more and more detail on the logs- ie average depth on trimix dives. Really? I very much got the impression Jason was just on a little power trip. I will certainly suggest that both of them contact you, because the way they have been treated was wrong.

[harmstrong]

FWIW- here is a link to the application as it appears on the NSS-CDS website. http://www.safecavediving.com/forms/...-050508Rev.pdf

You'll note, Kelly, that it says nothing about what form any log or log information submitted should be in, or what data it must contain beyond the obvious (cave and or mix dive, etc.). It gives no specifications about providing any stupid info like an average depth for a trimix dive.

I've asked my friends to contact you, but as this all happened last week and they are still awaiting the committee's blessing, I doubt they will want to rock the boat.

[speleodiver]

I have to disagree on the Jason comments. He has accepted and was able to get every application I submitted approved. My application took a few weeks but it was because I submitted my log in excel which was my cave only log and there was some confusion about the number of total dives versus experience. I have only known Jason for about 5 months but he is always egar to help get applications through. Just a week or so ago he approved one in a day because an Abe Davis was submitted with it. Logs can be confusing since there is no standard for writing them. I agree with Kelly, if a log comes in with 100 dives and no depths, time and mix information then it may be harder to prove experience which is why they want the log in the first place. Many doctors are published in this world but I would not let them operate on me. Just my two cents worth in defense of a guy who has busted his butt to help at Wakulla and keeps Indian Springs available as well.

Regardless of status, I would like to see the logs. If they are on a napkin and not organized then I would agree with the time frame for approval. If they are neat and organized then I would not agree with the time for approval. Perhaps this issue can be cause for some added clarification to the log requirement? Don't get me wrong I like fast apporval but I have seen many documents filed in courts of law during discovery which stalled cases to the point the judge issued orders to compel and there is law standards for submission of discovery documents. Not speaking against your friends but the logs do need to be understandable by all on the panel. I know an award will get instant approval if all else is good but I would not agree people should be forced to go get an award to dive in the park. The DEP just issued new rules on what can and can not be required of divers diving on state properties regardless of the company they dive with.

BTW, safecavediving is NACD's site not NSS-CDS.

[harmstrong]

I'm not saying that the logs don't need to be understandable. I am saying that if the committee wants specific information included in the submitted logs, then they need to specify what information log submissions should contain. Since there is no standardized log format that everyone uses, this would save the committee effort, no?

Not everyone wants or cares about Abe Davis or Wakulla "awards". I for one, don't see the point.

[speleodiver]

I'm not saying that the logs don't need to be understandable. I am saying that if the committee wants specific information included in the submitted logs, then they need to specify what information log submissions should contain. Since there is no standardized log format that everyone uses, this would save the committee effort, no?

Not everyone wants or cares about Abe Davis or Wakulla "awards". I for one, don't see the point.

Exactly and I agree. Just no need for the hostilities towards someone just trying to help. I thnk your post will get the matter resolved.

[harmstrong]

Exactly and I agree. Just no need for the hostilities towards someone just trying to help. I thnk your post will get the matter resolved.

I'm not hostile towards Jason, I've known him for quite some time, I just call things the way I interpret them.