Devil's...

[Cindy]

Hey Pat, don't let it get to you. Cave divers are not born knowing this stuff! Even with full cave class a new diver only gets a scant introduction to things like why caves are hazy at times. After a while you will begin to see a pattern in the water. You don't have to be a Geologist or Hydrologist, just attentive to the details of what is going on around you as you dive. Once a diver gets comfortable with their diving they begin to look around and ask questions. That was the whole reason that forums like this were created. So people can ask questions and learn from each other. Take everything of course with a grain of salt as many of the experts who you read on this are just shooting off their mouths and don't really know. Of course everyone knows that about internet posts! Cindy ps I have noticed that the caves clearing seems to be related to the lowering of the river level. If the river drops fast the caves clear more quickly.

[Kelly Jessop]

Take everything of course with a grain of salt as many of the experts who you read on this are just shooting off their mouths and don't really know. .

hmmmm.

[wingman]

ps I have noticed that the caves clearing seems to be related to the lowering of the river level. If the river drops fast the caves clear more quickly.

may well be true but it's often a mistake to attribute causation to correlation.This is a common error in that sort of logic, the "post hoc fallacy"...definitely take what you read here with a grain of salt....btw...hi pat!

[Cindy]

Isn't all science observation, correlation, experimentation and documentation? Lets see what Webster has to say, Science, systematic knowledge;investigation of this: any branch of study concerned with a body of observed material facts. As little "Science" that has been done in caves most people would admit that observation done by people who actually dive in the caves and see what happens year after year would be a good source of information. So, I see the river go down, the cave flow goes up, the particulate "blows" and the cave clears. Guess my that fits the definition all right. Seen it more than once and it seems to hold true most of the time. I guess maybe I should get a PHD to be able to do that? Dang, now I have to buy another card. Cindy

[wingman]

So, I see the river go down, the cave flow goes up, the particulate "blows" and the cave clears. Guess my that fits the definition all right. Seen it more than once and it seems to hold true most of the time.

like i said earlier it may be true but you might want to check out the post hoc fallacy, it may not be in your websters but there are other sources equally credible, the statement i quoted here from you is a pretty good example of the fallacy. The "most of the time" caveat though means that sometimes there is something else at work? I would certainly be glad to use your observations as a general "rule of thumb." I just found it humerous that you were expounding on the statements from others who were "experts" and then made one of your own...

[Limestone Cowboy]

Bill is correct. Understanding the mechanism is what moves you from correlation to causation. Correlating it to river level is fine, but what _causes_ it? Is it temperature driven, pH driven, chemical precipitation or particulate causing the turbidity? Does the change in head actually cause it, or is it something else that merely happens at the same time.

Hope that helps some.

Drew

[Cindy]

I do know a couple of other things. No forum can work if people post information that is misleading or post just to "Start Something". It's not conductive to learning and doesn't help. It's not even close to why people get on these forums. If you have information go ahead and post it but picking on new divers for asking questions or running me down when I am trying to help seems like a real waste of time. It doesn't help cave diving and it doesn't make you look good. If you don't like what I am saying in an explanation then come up with something more logical and backed by research. I would like to learn more also. Cindy

[wingman]

I do know a couple of other things. No forum can work if people post information that is misleading or post just to "Start Something". It's not conductive to learning and doesn't help. It's not even close to why people get on these forums. If you have information go ahead and post it but picking on new divers for asking questions or running me down when I am trying to help seems like a real waste of time. It doesn't help cave diving and it doesn't make you look good. If you don't like what I am saying in an explanation then come up with something more logical and backed by research. I would like to learn more also. Cindy

So sorry, not intending to run you down and did not notice anywhere in this thread where someone was "picking on a new diver." You were the one who said:

"Take everything of course with a grain of salt as many of the experts who you read on this are just shooting off their mouths and don't really know."

I still think you have missed what i was trying to say and you are right about our time, it is being wasted so let's just drop it.

[Jordan]

No need to take everything so seriously, especially something like an internet forum.

[wingman]

No need to take everything so seriously, especially something like an internet forum.

hey, i'm done here (bill being as apologetic as possible)...sorry for taking the thread south...just enjoy the great vis at ginnie...wish i was there!