Mattachuk (sp?) 11-2-12

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Most caves can't take the traffic.

The fact that most people are simply too lazy to do the work to find them keeps alot of them at a decent carrying capacity. I see no reason whatsoever to reward the lazy. These aren't closed sites, they just don't have google directions to their doorstops. Nobody is closing them, they simply aren't doing your homework for you.

As for what you said, here's the direct quote, "I hope to god you get stuck in one of those caves no one knows about so they never find your ass." Pretty sure stuck means dead in this case :P You either said it or not. This is the kind of person you are. Not your best hand at trying to get cave location information.

[Tegg]

Yep I did (off the forum), though technically I said I hope you get stuck in one of them . I think locations should be open to everyone. We should discourage those who aren't up to snuff from diving it (instructor's should be more strict), but we should all share these sites with one another for the benefit of all cave divers. If we hide sites, then we are no better than those who keep us out of sites that we are trying to open to everyone.

You are like the rest of them.

I'd say 90% of the "unknown" caves are documented in several places on the internet along with other locations. Do some damn research and quit whining that someone won't draw you a stick map to a cave from your doorstep.

as a side note: if you did send that PM to Mat (warranted or not), it was a pretty crappy representation of your mindset. Mat has his issues, but that type of response is not what I would consider professional or mature.


Now let's get this thread back on topic and post pictures or stories of recent dives in this "off the beaten path" cave.

[Spd 135]

Yep I did (off the forum), though technically I said I hope you get stuck in one of them . I think locations should be open to everyone. We should discourage those who aren't up to snuff from diving it (instructor's should be more strict), but we should all share these sites with one another for the benefit of all cave divers. If we hide sites, then we are no better than those who keep us out of sites that we are trying to open to everyone.

Wow, stuck in a cave, really? When I had a few less grandchildren and a bit more time, I did a little running with Mat. At that time he had 2 huge binders. I had a boat. Mat has worked his behind off doing the research and finding these caves and filling those binders with data that he worked to get. Then he found some new caves and laid line in them, and.............never mind. Based on your statement you probably don't get it. It's not anybody's job to hand over locations to you, me or anyone. Mat also has stepped up and recovered a really stuck body that was a beast to get to. He has to live with what he witnessed and what he did. It was not a good deal. It took extraordinary steps to ready the body for removal so that his family could grieve and put him to rest. He also volunteers and works to get caves open. You? Mat doesn't need my defense, but he is a true friend and I won't stand silent when someone whines and complains and wishes a friend dead. Sir, you were out of line. Mark

[Kevin Carlisle]

Yep I did (off the forum), though technically I said I hope you get stuck in one of them . I think locations should be open to everyone. We should discourage those who aren't up to snuff from diving it (instructor's should be more strict), but we should all share these sites with one another for the benefit of all cave divers. If we hide sites, then we are no better than those who keep us out of sites that we are trying to open to everyone.

Jordan, with your attitude I wouldnt give you directions to Vortex or Ginnie. Low class there man, grow up.

[jcook]

Ah well, Matt didn't include the context of why I said that to him. I didn't want to point it out on the forum, since I would probably get banned for being "uncivil". But oh well.

He said anyone that served in combat shouldn't be helped at all and they haven't sacrificed anything, he said it was a job and I got paid. And because of that I have a baseless sense of entitlement for free stuff.

FWIW I do go tromp through the woods on a regular basis looking for sinkholes. Granted I haven't done as much as some guys on the forum, but probably a lot more than most. I just don't go brag to everyone that I do it and then rub it in their face if I find a sinkhole. I have found some, but after talking with the landowners, they requested I didn't dive there, so I don't say anything. A couple said I could dive there, but no one else could because they don't want a lot of people on their property. So I just didn't bother diving there. My whole philosophy on cave diving is being able to share the experience with others. Whether it be with me or when someone goes their with others, as long as others know about it and enjoy it, I am happy.

[speleodiver]

Perhaps the same kind of resistance was met with many of the holes Matt found. You seem to think he has this massive list. Let me tell you, he does! But many are either private, closed or restricted access. Some are public and anyone can find them. I will tell you there is truth to " you attract more flys with sugar then vinegar." Sort of like you get restrictions placed upon you for the words you fail to taste before you spit them! Also plays a big role in the friends you attract. Perhaps the real issue lies there. Perhaps your friends aren't your friends and your enemies arent necessarily your enemies. The saying has to do with a bird and BS. Which you seem to start a lot of. Perhaps you should take a break, go on a hike or two, discover some new place and friends and then learn not to run everyone in the ground with the good old boys routine. I like good old boys but that's because all my friends are only the ones I like and just as many are the ones I do not! You want cave then put your money where your mouth is and let's go diving. You know where to find me and I will even get the gas!

[mdax]

Matt, do you actually believe that crap about combat being a job and not a sacrifice? I know some folks have pretty radicalized opinions and it'd be good to know if you feel that way in order to properly weight your future posts.

[a64pilot]

OK, I'm a little worried about this post as it can / will easily be misread. he is real hard to take. He says what's on his mind, and to heck with the consequences. He also is a little quick to comment, I think sometimes even he thinks he was just maybe a little too brunt in what the says.
I think Matt will be OK with me saying this as I'm myself. My Avatar isn't a Donkey stuck in a well, it's . I don't have many friends because of this, I have to bite my tongue often to stay out of trouble.
Don't ask Matt what he thinks about something unless your prepared to hear his complete opinion, he is a very biased person, if he likes something or someone, he will bend over backwards for them, if he doesn't like them, then he wouldn't waste bodily fluids on them if they were on fire. I'm the same way.
I do not think Matt really meant the comment about Combat Vets, because he has no idea what he is talking about, I think maybe he like most think of the bums on the side of the road with their hand out pretending to be Combat Vets, in order to get a free ride.
What he and others don't realize is most Combat Vets don't walk around professing to be. It's like almost anything else, cavediving included, those that do the most talking are usually full of it.

On edit, I think it's Mat isn't it, not Matt?

[FW]

...On edit, I think it's Mat isn't it, not Matt?

Yes, his name is Mat.

[rotor60driver]

Ah well, Matt didn't include the context of why I said that to him. I didn't want to point it out on the forum, since I would probably get banned for being "uncivil". But oh well.

He said anyone that served in combat shouldn't be helped at all and they haven't sacrificed anything, he said it was a job and I got paid. And because of that I have a baseless sense of entitlement for free stuff.

FWIW I do go tromp through the woods on a regular basis looking for sinkholes. Granted I haven't done as much as some guys on the forum, but probably a lot more than most. I just don't go brag to everyone that I do it and then rub it in their face if I find a sinkhole. I have found some, but after talking with the landowners, they requested I didn't dive there, so I don't say anything. A couple said I could dive there, but no one else could because they don't want a lot of people on their property. So I just didn't bother diving there. My whole philosophy on cave diving is being able to share the experience with others. Whether it be with me or when someone goes their with others, as long as others know about it and enjoy it, I am happy.

Alright so I don't post too often but I will get in on this one. As a combat vet who is also a friend of Mat I am curious as to why you being a vet would come up in conversation. I have known and dived with Mat for nearly six years and not once have I felt or heard this from him. I have had him show me around here and there over the years and he never asked me about my service to ensure he wasn't hanging out with a vet. Not too sure it ever even came up in conversation although I have showed up to dive sites in uniform before having driven straight from work so it's not like I was hiding it.

So to complete your purpose of showing us the context of the conversation could you fill in all the blanks in the discussion. It is possible his problem is you and not your background. Not knowing you or the situation/conversation I can't say.

Thanks for your service though.