Or use common sense. If you are heading into an area that you aren't sure about, that might be time to turn the dive. I guess im assuming that all of us actually pay that close of attention too important things tho.Originally Posted by bpcfire1
O I agree Kevin but we all know that there are ppl that dont think before reacting....I was just making a reference, like some places have a map set up...thats all..
BRANDON
Same here.
Dammit! Sorry about that.
It's not the years in your life that matter, but the life in your years.
LOL, jk guys....I agree tho, the best and safest way to this is the diver them self.
This is what makes the CDF a great place!
TRAINING, SMARTER DIVERS, COMMON SENSE the fundamentals of a safe diving community.
Serious issues that need addressed in the cave community.
Just curious some of you might know, who trained these FULL cave divers?
Of the four rescues 3 were cave certified were they not?
I can understand but if a common name comes up then possibly there is a problem.
JCG
As side mount configurations are getting popular instructors should stress why in prior years side mount was a certification beyond full cave. There is a huge difference between diving side mount passages and diving side mount configuration in larger cave.
Going into small passages trying to force yourself through is a recipe for disaster and many new folks don't train to take off a cylinder as their instructor didn't intend for them to dive in tight places.
I'm not sure there is any easy/quick solution as there are more instructors than ever, lots of students and many of them in side mount configurations. It's only a matter of time before there are fatalities due to newer folks pushing into side mount passages; Edd's a hero but can't be everywhere.
Good points...thats why there is a SM classes, if you want to dive in SM areas...take the class....is it worth the life of you, your buddies, or anyone called upon to get you out. Its only $3-400. However, there are stupid ppl out there and as we say it in the fire service, its job security.
Why have line arrows at all then? It's just dumbing down cave diving. You should always know the location and direction of the nearest exit. Obviously if you need a line arrow you either were not trained properly, or you didn't pay attention in class?
For that matter, why have gold line? It just makes it easier for multiple teams to dive the same cave. More lazy people probably dive caves because they don't have to lay line the entire length of their route. Maps are just a crutch for people too impatient to learn cave systems through progressive penetration. Right?
Times are changing guys. Side mount, and the general popularity of the sport mean more divers going to more places in caves. You have a real-world example that could have resulted in three fatalities in a very short period of time, in the same system. You're all hyper-quick to jump on folks for exceeding their training (rightly so) but you have to examine the whole system with a critical eye if you really want to have a positive effect on the reduction of accidents. My god, three dead bodies might have some effect on the diving you get to do. If nothing else. think about that.
What would be your reaction with three deaths under your belt, all at Jackson Blue, just a few months apart? I get that that diver responsibility is probably a significant factor, perhaps, it's the only factor, but I'm not buying that. Stupid divers do stupid things all the time, and get away with it. These three guys are only alive, because of a miracle. Think about that for a second. A miracle (named Edd) is the only reason these guys are alive, all in one season, all in one particular spot of one particular cave.
This is what accident analysis is all about, examining a particular incident (or incidents) and figuring out a way to minimize or eliminate it's reoccurrence. It is a happy circumstance that it isn't being done postmortem, but I can't see a way that I won't be telling all of you "I told you so" six months or a year down the road.
I realize I'm the wrong person to be harping on this. I literally don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I'll be lucky to have Intro under my belt by this time next year...
But, I find it lazy and short-sighted to chalk all this up to training, to chalk all this up to dumb divers reaching beyond their grasp, to ignore an opportunity to look at the current system, and find where it may be lacking. It may very well be dumb divers, or poor training, but whatever it is, I sincerely hope I won't have to say "I told you so".
Sorry Alex but trash in a cave is not necessary. Training training and training. Just because you have that full cave card does not mean go explore. Get you lazy butt out there and LEARN, lots want the internet glory but not the work that goes into it. IMO, if you can't evaluate the dive and tell its getting too risky for your abilities, that person really needs to be golfing and not diving. At full cave, these divers in question, both incidents at this spot should have known better.
There is training levels that use the line...I dont think that it would be possible to run a line from the entrance all the way to the back of Ginnie or some of these other big systems unless you are going to find a way to carry 10000 feet of line....Arrows are there for reasons that are uncontrollable....Lights out, silt out, and such things to where when you do find the line you know which way is out...you dont swim with contact on the lines at all times to know "o i got turn around"...
I am not being an ass bout training and skill but you would not go dive 400ft with out the proper training even tho the hole goes that deep. You would get the right training to do it SAFELY or you would be on of he stupid ones if not. If there were not maps, then ppl would have no idea what is going on and where to go...If Edd was called to some cave down in High Springs to do a recovery and he doesnt dive that cave much, do you think if I walk up and say my buddy was in the "mud tunel", Edd is going to be like..oh yea, thats the 12th tunel in on the right and I have to make a jump at the big rock on the sidewall...NO, hes going to look at a map and find the location. Its called DIVE PLANNING.
Its simple, if you are not trained dont do it. If it is a place you shouldnt be, then dont go there. Im not sure of anything in life that doesnt require training or learning. You dont run into a cave and find out, O wait, im stuck because I went in a hole that I cant get out of now. NO you plan it first.
Its simple, whats going to be talked about when one goes beyond their training to see a nice area in a cave and gets in trouble. Then Edd comes and something happens to Edd, do you want that damn weight on your shoulders when you could have dove to your limit. Its one thing for a man to risk his life to go in for someone who had a problem, but having an issue from lack of training is not accecptable in my book. I dont ask my firefighters to perform task they are not trained in just because the situation is there. No we call upon the ppl that do have the right training to be in that spot.
I dont and im sure most wouldnt either!!!
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