What is Missing from the Mill Pond Missing Diver Thread?

[Ben M]

Where to start, where to start....I don't have all the details about these accidents, but as in most accidents, there is a series of events that could have been stopped at any point, but were allowed to progress too far to safely return.

Both of these dives had poor or incomplete plans before they left the divers left the surface. Sometimes that is ok, but means you have deferred all risk assessment to happen in real time on the dive. Is the team capable of doing that? Be honest with yourself. If you aren't capable of making proper assessments, get someone to dive with you that has more experience, knows the location, or both.

Case 1: Instructor and 2 students plan a simple jump. None of the divers are familiar with the jump including the instructor. I don't know who the instructor teaches for (it's not NACD or NSS-CDS, I've looked at the online instructor lists). I don't know if there are any standards this violates, but it seems pretty basic not to be doing training in a location that you are not familiar with, both to protect the cave and the students. Anyways, on the dive they located the wrong jump. They continue swimming as the passage gets smaller and siltier. The guy in front goes through some pretty nasty stuff and never stops to turn the dive. Student in position 2 is certainly following line in low to 0 vis going into the passage and never has the sense to stop. The instructor in the 3rd position doesn't fit and can't see anything, and does have enough sense to realize there is a big problem. He realizes that he couldn't do anything to fix it. I don't know if it was a gutsy call to leave and get help or terror inspired or what. I'm sure that was very difficult, but he got lucky that he got to Edd and the students didn't run out of gas before Edd found them. The entire spiral of events after the first couple of mistakes is unclear, but they didn't follow the basic tenant of getting on line and reversing course. Why, I don't know but the incident could have been avoided well before they found themselves in that position.

Case 2: A group of divers (4) plans to do a jump in a side passage that is unknown to all of them. I don't know if they were a team of 4 or 2 teams of 2 but they seemed to all be diving together. This was the first mistake: Going into small unknown territory with a large team. In large cave, there can be a little bit of safety in numbers, but in smaller passages this is simply not a good idea, especially in unknown territory. They had gathered some information about where they planned on going but not enough. So on the dive, they missed the jump as the team above. At least this time some of the team did not follow. I don't have any details from here to continue, but at least the first guy got too far into trouble and was also unable to back track. We know that they didn't have any idea where they were because even when describing to Frank and Edd where the missing diver was last seen, they told him it had occurred in the other jump. They had no idea they had been in the wrong location.

In the caves, we can't safety proof everything. Even if we could where does it stop? At some point the diver in the water has to make a judgement call. In both of these dives, the lead diver made the mistake of not turning around soon enough. What is easy for you may not be easy for me, and vice versa. As a diver, you have to look ahead and evaluate if what you can see is within your capabilities. If you can't see the next corner or the next wide spot that you can turn around in and you continue, you have just accepted an unknown risk. If you are touching the ceiling and the silt at the same time, you didn't just appear there, you had to intentionally go into it. Do we need a sign that says this is an advanced passage, or is the height of the passage and fine silt on the floor enough?

[GeorgiaDoc]

I agree with Ben, no matter what measures you put into place eventually you have to make a decision in the water. I have dove that passage and several others that are quite small for me, 5'10'' and 240lb. But I asked lots of questions before I tied in that line. I knew where I was going and what to expect and I have yet to get into passage that I was surprised by. If I EVER do a small passage and seem surprised by the passage I encounter I can assure you I will turn around.
That passage is on the map. Along with the Horseshoe Circuit. If you plan your dive properly and know the map you would easily know that there are two jumps in close proximity to each other. And you would know that coming from where they started one turns to the left, one to the right. As soon as that passage took a 90 degree turn to the right the well informed diver should at least think that they might be in the wrong place.
And if I remember correctly, its been a few months since I have been in that passage. Before it gets really nasty it looks nasty.
If you go in a cave to just "make some jumps" Darwin will show up!!!

[whodunit68]

I've tried other passages that I hadn't seen on maps. Whodunit68 will remember doing some jumps off the Parker line in Nohoch with us -- I swam forward until I ran into a triple T in low, silty passage, and I said, "No, this is above my pay grade," and turned the team.

You are correct, I do remember and it seemed to have lasting positive impact. I have taken the jump in question and just after that 90º right turn, I turned us around. It was unknown passage to us and I had zero doubt that my buddy would be 100% ok with my call. We may return to it but it will be on the way in and planned, knowing what we are dealing with.

May we PLEASE stop trying to redesign the world over the one or two "oops" or idiots? You will NEVER keep everyone safe / alive.

This isn't redesigning the world. The unfortunate reality is that evolution of ideas often stems from errors and lack of judgement. This terrible lack of judgement nealy cost someone his life. Let's leave out the name calling. Street signs DO change. Just because it works fairly well now doesnt mean we should ignore the possibility of making improvements. I am not saying change anything, I am suggesting we remain open to ideas and suggestions as well as disussingthem.

, 5'10'' and ...
That passage is on the map. Along with the Horseshoe Circuit. If you plan your dive properly and know the map you would easily know that there are two jumps in close proximity to each other. And you would know that coming from where they started one turns to the left, one to the right. As soon as that passage took a 90 degree turn to the right the well informed diver should at least think that they might be in the wrong place.
And if I remember correctly, its been a few months since I have been in that passage. Before it gets really nasty it looks nasty.

Mark, that is compete B.S. You are at least 5'10 1/2".
Yes, it goes nasty with sufficient warning.

[GeorgiaDoc]

The problem with some other method of letting someone know that there is small cave ahead is if they do not heed the warning that should have gone off in his head after making that 90 degree turn what makes you think he would have paid attention to any other signs. You still have to make that judgement that "I shouldn't be here, this is over my training and skill level". A call I have made a lot. And if my buddy is not ok with it, I need a new buddy.

[Real1628]

Was talking with someone who has the task of examining equipment as part of accident investigations and he said something like "It's never the equipment." meaning that almost all accidents are the result of diver error at some level. You could put in lines, lights, signs, and anything else you can think of and there would still be accidents. The bottom line is that our most valuable piece of equipment is mounted between our ears. When we fail to take full advantage of it we get into trouble. A renewed emphasis on the fundamentals is called for. We all need to step back and take another look at Training, equipment, experience, planning, practice, and emergency preparedness. Situational awareness and calm action will take you a long way.

[Kevin Carlisle]

The problem with some other method of letting someone know that there is small cave ahead is if they do not heed the warning that should have gone off in his head after making that 90 degree turn what makes you think he would have paid attention to any other signs. You still have to make that judgement that "I shouldn't be here, this is over my training and skill level". A call I have made a lot. And if my buddy is not ok with it, I need a new buddy.

+1 I know I have seen several people warned and then they did not listen. I think maybe more should be done on certifying agencies side, too many seem to slip through the cracks and get cards that should have flunked their class.

[whodunit68]

+1 I know I have seen several people warned and then they did not listen. I think maybe more should be done on certifying agencies side, too many seem to slip through the cracks and get cards that should have flunked their class.

I agree with you guys but how do you get hundreds of PADI instructors to all of a sudden start reinforcing the messages? I think it doesn't happen and we end up with more people that aren't so lucky.

too many seem to slip through the cracks and get cards that should have flunked their class.

yes, true. very. so do we not take extra precaution and help these people because agencies are not fulfilling their responsibilities?

Why is there a sign @ Rocky Horror? Should we take it out? Why is there a sign at the Devil's Eye? Anyone with half a brain can see it was dark in there after the flooding. A few small extra precautions hurt no one.

[loquat149]

+1 I know I have seen several people warned and then they did not listen. I think maybe more should be done on certifying agencies side, too many seem to slip through the cracks and get cards that should have flunked their class.

Perhaps cave/technical diving instructors should publish their pass/fail rates? The professors who give A's to most of their students at the college where my wife teaches are poor instructors who never challenge their students to go beyond the lazy study habitats they developed in high school. Ironically, those professors get high scores on RateMyProfessor and frequently earn "best instructor" awards! There's something to be said about bell-shaped curves and quality vs. quantity.

Dave

[Kevin Carlisle]

@ Steve. Im talking Nss, NACD, Tdi and so on. I think too many instructors are about money and recognition. That needs to stop.

Dave I agree, add dead students to the list.

[LiteHedded]

lol that will never happen

you silly people