What is Missing from the Mill Pond Missing Diver Thread?

[LCF]

I really don't understand the recent near-accident at all. The prior one seems to have been due to an instructor briefing or guiding students into the wrong passage because he didn't know the cave; this argues for having an instructor who knows the systems in which he is teaching. But this one seems to have been a team of divers who ended up on the wrong line and persevered until they were in serious trouble, which is a major judgment error, and I don't understand it.

I don't dive that much in FL, and although I've been in JB, I've never poked around enough to see where the passage these guys got into starts. I dive the mainline, and have never done a jump there.

But in MX, where I dive a LOT, there are places I'd like to go . . . there is, for example, some very interesting-looking passage in downstream Grand, but the map indicates that getting there involves a lot of small cave. I didn't go and try it out -- I got hold of people who know the caves there, and asked, "Can we get to the good stuff safely?" And they said, "No." So I wrote that off.

I've tried other passages that I hadn't seen on maps. Whodunit68 will remember doing some jumps off the Parker line in Nohoch with us -- I swam forward until I ran into a triple T in low, silty passage, and I said, "No, this is above my pay grade," and turned the team.

It seems to me that the essence of being a safe tourist cave diver is making EVERY questionable decision in the direction of safety, rather than adventure. People like Aj and Brian, who live with the caves and dive them constantly, are probably in good shape making "adventure" decisions. The stories about repairing broken line and remaining composed throughout kind of support that. Those of us who make a couple or a few trips a year really ought to set the algorithm so that if anything is questionable, it's resolved in the direction of "no".

[bpcfire1]

Very well said LCF!!

[Benderr]

So lines and arrows are in caves for certain reasons? Yet you have people (for whatever reason) making the same navigation errors at the same place in the same cave.

I get the training argument, I get the judgment argument. We're all trained to drive motor vehicles, we all know the rules of the road, there's always going to be a percentage of folks that ignore the rules, or drive beyond the ability, but, when you have multiple people driving off a cliff you put in a speed bump, a cop with a radar gun, a flashing yellow sign, something.

You've had three people almost jump a cliff on the same stretch of road, yet the consensus is: Dude shoulda braked sooner.

I know that no one wants speed limits and stop signs when they're trying out their new Porsche, but you won't even try to work out a solution, or find a better way? Is cave diving going to lose it's luster because there's an extra cookie somewhere in a mile-long cave?

Is it so terrible to have something in place that confirms my belief about something? I've noticed that most of the caverns I dive have a reaper sign at the edge of the cavern zone. I don't need that sign to tell me I've reached a restriction, or the edge of the daylight zone, but my decision is reinforced by it being there. I think caves would be much prettier without reaper signs, but it's a reasonable trade off for what you get.

I'm not advocating neon signs, I'm saying it looks (from a noob's perspective) like you have a hole in the system, especially when you consider how the sport is changing.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Maybe the root of the problem here is training one to understand what kind of cave is in their capabilities and showing them how to properly progress within their "bubble" of experience and/or training?

BINGO

Training should include being able to recognize that your tall backmount profile will not only damage the cave environment needlessly, but its also increasing(exponentially) the chance that you are going to get stuck in this (very) obviously best done in sidemount passage.

[allen]

I would favor both more explicit training AND warning signs. My open water insrructor was very emphatic about 2 points:
1. Don't do anything you haven't been trained to do.
2. In a new area, seek local knowledge.
My cave instructors added:
3. Never do a blind circuit (unless you can do the entire circuit on thirds).
4. Put your name on your reel so that you know it's your reel when you start the completion of the circuit.
Warning signs might help those who fail to seek local knowledge. They might also help those who get bad local knowledge or think they are someplace other than where they are.

[RN]

On edit, on the wrong cave thing remove the markers for that jump? I'm pretty sure that in both instances they thought they were going to do the horseshoe circuit, and of course that's not where they were.

Problem is those same marker are there for Young’s and Double Lines. They actually mark the jumps to the right more than the jump to the left. The issue is people are either being given incorrect information or not understanding the cave enough. Supposedly both teams were looking for the Horseshoe Circuit but neither went there. Instead they went to a different jump. The two jumps are very different from each other and very easily distinguishable from each other. It should be no problem telling someone how to get to each one without confusing the two.

I think in this case putting it on the map may be better than leaving it off. The passage can end (on the map) with a little "sm" notation, like many other maps. People will know there is a SM passage in the area, and hopefully be a bit more aware of the possibility of being in the wrong section.

That section is on the map and does show that it gets smaller. When you look at the map it just ends rather than coming back out at the 1st breakdown.

The flip side of the coin I know is the cost of producing a new map as well as some feel that marking all the jumps, esp. sm jumps will just stimulate some people to take tunnels they shouldn't.

There is a new map in the works. It just takes time to map a system that large.

That area of the cave is not "big passage" that suddenly squeezes into a no mount restriction with no "warning". It is a sidemount passage to start that gets tighter and more technical as it goes.

Actually, it is big passage at the beginning. It doesn’t squeeze down into smaller passage until after you’ve hit the 90 degree turn to the right.

a colored arrow with "Silty"

But Sandy, how will we know if it’s a system marker or one of your personal markers??? LOL!

[Sludge]

Supposedly both teams were looking for the Horseshoe Circuit but neither went there. Instead they went to a different jump. The two jumps are very different from each other and very easily distinguishable from each other.

Duh.

[RN]

Duh.

Exactly my point!

But somehow two different groups of divers couldn't tell the difference for some reason.

[sandy]

I knew that was coming Rob but was not sure if it would be you, Barbara or ArcticMike

Mat - agree. First time we dove that passage(SM), I turned it. Turns out we were < 25 feet from the end but something was not right. The second time was a non event.

[Jax]

Y'know, there are some people to whom you can provide knowledge and they will happily act within their abilities.

There are others to whom you provide knowledge and they happily press the envelope.

You really cannot MAKE people think. You can wish they would, you can hope they consider and analyze, but you just cannot MAKE anyone think.

Divers dive safely within the current signs / lines, etc. Just like drivers drive safely within the current road markings / signs, etc.

May we PLEASE stop trying to redesign the world over the one or two "oops" or idiots? You will NEVER keep everyone safe / alive.