Thats the point. Every cave I have dove, I have contacted someone that I know has dove the system and has experience and I ask them about the cave and if it is something I can do. That way I know it if its ok or something out of my limits. Poor Steve is prob tired of me asking him about caves and stuff.
BRANDON
Which may be the case.Originally Posted by Tegg
My concern us that you have a particular area that has had two known problems in a single dive season, both of which would have resulted in fatalities had it not been for extraordinary circumstances. Without seeing the area with my own eyes, it's impossible for me to form any real opinion, but could it be that this particular area is deceptively more challenging than it appears? Especially when viewed through the mask of less experienced divers?
never buddy.
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Cave Mann
I think that this is a very good suggestion, but suspect the marianna regulars would likely disagree. I haven't been very far in JB, but during my sm class Edd told us that there are quite a few jumps in JB that aren't on any map. I kept quiet at the time as to not sound like the dumb new guy, but in my head I thought wouldn't mapping those jumps make it much easier not to go down the wrong tunnel. I've been lucky at the caves I dive to either easily figure out what jump is what or have had more experienced frineds give me a heads up or confirm my assumptions. I would think by having known jumps marked on the map there would be less confusion when someone new to a site dives it and doesn't have someone with more experience to clarify.
The flip side of the coin I know is the cost of producing a new map as well as some feel that marking all the jumps, esp. sm jumps will just stimulate some people to take tunnels they shouldn't.
Nope. It is clear when diving it what kind of skill is required. As it should be to any properly trained cave diver. Cave instructors are tasked with making sure that students can properly view/travel a passage and make the decision to turn prior to being in a passage that exceeds their ability.
That area of the cave is not "big passage" that suddenly squeezes into a no mount restriction with no "warning". It is a sidemount passage to start that gets tighter and more technical as it goes. Remember, two of the 4 thumbed the dive... So it must have been obvious to at least 50%.
Joe
Agreed some of it is training. Also as more divers get cave trained, you will have more that dive within their training when with their instructor and then once they get their card do whatever they want no matter how there were trained. It is not possible to train common sense into someone.
I could not agree more. There may be things that can be done with signs, markers or voodoo dolls but the real issue is training. Looking back, we need to really analyze the reason why these divers or at least how these divers got in to trouble in the first place. There are too many instructors just flat out not teaching! Sure they teach to the standards but teaching involves more then reading from a book. Is it morally wrong to teach backmount and not at least touch on sidemount and the hazards of diving in sidemount passage. Let's face it, SM is now mainstream. Passages are being lined right now that are SM only and yet those diehard BM folks won't acknowledge it. I'm not saying everyone here but many! It is the instructors job to teach and preach the do's and don'ts of diving. How else are the students going to learn? The Internet? If that your idea of teaching them then there lies the problem. We have dove for many years with few accidents and markers were not an issue. While it may help, I do not believe marking or removing markers will solve anything. These divers need to have it drilled into them through the education process. This means teaching them up front and saving lives in the end.
I think, just maybe that the two that thumbed the dive could possibly have silted it out, and maybe the other two thought since this is the horseshoe circuit, the best thing to do is keep going and stay in clear vis, as opposed to trying to turn around in a tight passage with next to zero vis. horseshoe circuit of course takes you back to the cavern, but this got tighter. one eventually decided to turn also, but the guy that didn't make it out under his own power could have essentially been in such bad vis, lost, dis-orientated etc.
I wasn't there, haven't talked to any of them, but one glaring problem just to me is there were too many divers, possibly.
Remember I'm just trying to make sense of it, and sometimes 2 and 2 don't add up to 4, so I may be way off.
Last edited by Sludge; 10-18-2012 at 05:09 PM. Reason: remove profanity
Don't flame me bro.....
How about standardized markers that indicate side-mount routes and back mount routes? Ideally something that could be identified by sight and touch.
I think that it's a training problem. The first couple hundred feet of JB has more than 20 lines that I've poked around on, and even after a good number of dives in there I won't pretend I know how they all connect with my eyes closed. Some of them are semi backmountable, some are sidemount only, some are silty and small with no flow even when the main tunnel is cranking. As a general proposition, it's a bad idea to do them with a team of four (I gather that's what happened here) in backmount. It's too tricky to get everyone turned around in an orderly fashion when someone decides they've had enough, or realizes they are not where they thought they were. There's more huge cave in the pond than most of us could see in a lifetime, so maybe focus on that when you're diving these caves for the first time.
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