Must-do dives & FL accomodation - Jan 2013

[whodunit68]

What would you suggest? Closing all caves would forever protect them from damage from cave divers, and solve the $$$$ problem that is inherent all cave diving organizations.

for what it's worth...technical diving, cave diving....they're expensive, yet we still give $25 certification cards and $35 memberships (or whatever the number is) and do virtually nothing that I see in the way of fundraising.
I say at the very least, double the prices of cert cards, go to at least $100/year (still easily EASILY worth the membership for access to Cow), and start doing paid speaking engagements (promote them).
Let's lower the financial pressures and make a really great organization.
yes I'm willing to help.

[whodunit68]

You and I both know there is no control at a site where someone is not present 24hrs a day with cameras and lights....

agreed. I've seen all sorts of nonsense at Cow....locals walking around, etc.

[Sludge]

go to at least $100/year

Yeah, do that and there is ZERO chance I would be a member.

[jj1987]

How many members actually decided to let their CDS membership lapse, or not join at all; vs those who left because it became obvious that the CDS places membership numbers($$$$) is far more important than whats really important(cave conservation)?

I bet the numbers aren't available anywhere, but I'd also guess they are a wash.

Yet the caves still get trashed by those not qualified for the dive.

I'm not totally sure, but given the dropout rate in cave diving I would feel comfortable guessing that full cave divers with abe davis is less than 20% of cave divers. I would also guess that nearly everyone who joins the CDS does so to dive Cow, at least originally.

I don't think there's enough full cave + 100 divers, especially once you have the political BS that goes on and eliminate those who refuse to join to support the organization. If you want to fix damage, don't create artificial limits, stop crossovers and stop the good ole boy network which allows subpar training to continue.

[DA Aquamaster]

What would you suggest? Closing all caves would forever protect them from damage from cave divers, and solve the $$$$ problem that is inherent all cave diving organizations.

Matt is just suggesting a reasonable middle of the road policy, and that the prior Abe Davis policy was exactly that.

Suggesting or comparing and contrasting extreme positions isn't real helpful.

My opinion, as an NSS-CDS member, is that the Abe Davis requirement made sense and was not overly restrictive, yet helped ensure a slightly higher level of experience that would help reduce the damage in Cow.

You and I both know there is no control at a site where someone is not present 24hrs a day with cameras and lights....

If we follow that logic, then we should have no requirements at all - just remove the gate entirely.

I'm not totally sure, but given the dropout rate in cave diving I would feel comfortable guessing that full cave divers with abe davis is less than 20% of cave divers. I would also guess that nearly everyone who joins the CDS does so to dive Cow, at least originally.

I don't think there's enough full cave + 100 divers, especially once you have the political BS that goes on and eliminate those who refuse to join to support the organization. If you want to fix damage, don't create artificial limits, stop crossovers and stop the good ole boy network which allows subpar training to continue.

I suspect that most NSS-CDS members did not join just to dive Cow. It would be pretty easy to estimate however based on the number and percentage of new members that signed up at Dive Outpost while picking up the key.

Even if it is the case that Cow was the NSS-CDS membership motivator for a large number of divers, then the ability to dive in Cow, especially Cow that is not beat to #### with an Abe Davis requirement in place, would still become an incentive for a diver to complete full cave and stay around long enough to log 100 dives at that level to qualify for the AD award.

I suspect you are correct that the majority of cave divers drop out before reaching 100 dives post full cave . I'm not sure the membership cash flow implications of that should be a consideration however. This type of management decision should be based instead on what's in the best interest of the long term sustainability of the cave (short of restricting meaningful access to the cave), not the organizational bottom line of the agency that purports to protect that particular cave.

You're making the same basic argument as I am when you suggest the NSS-CDS should do something about instructors churning out divers at the full cave level who appear to lack the skills needed/desired at that level. Again that's about the cash flow for the agency as a legitimate fear is that tightening the certification standards for NSS-CDSD certs would just result in divers choosing NACD, NAUI, etc instead of the NSS-CDS. Thus until everyone does it, no one is going to do it.

But even if all the cert agencies tightened standards and stopped churning out full cave level divers with inadequate skills, there is still the issue of currency. Cave diving skills are perishable and if a diver does not maintain a reasonable level of diving per year to maintain those skills, they will degrade over a fairly short period of time.

In that regard the Abe Davis requirement made sense as it limited access to Cow to what we both suspect is a small percentage of cave divers that persist in the sport long enough to meet the Abe Davis requirement. The odds are that divers at that level probably dive more frequently on average than divers below that level and probably on average have fewer problems remaining current and reasonably proficient in their cave diving. That, more than just the level is what I think would help minimize damage in Cow.

It's unfortunate that the NSS-CDS did not stand behind that requirement.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

You and I both know there is no control at a site where someone is not present 24hrs a day with cameras and lights....

I would say far fewer unprepared divers sneak Cow, than unprepared divers having unfettered access to it.

Let's lower the financial pressures and make a really great organization.
yes I'm willing to help.

Would the additional revenue make them a better organization?

It doesn't really cost money to organize workdays, cleanups, clinics, or other member beneficial activities that run parrallel with the CDS goals. In some instances, they could even get away with charging money for them. Yet, it doesn't happen.

[FW]

...It doesn't really cost money to organize workdays, cleanups, clinics, or other member beneficial activities that run parrallel with the CDS goals. In some instances, they could even get away with charging money for them. Yet, it doesn't happen.

The NSS-CDS is a volunteer organization, and to do the things you suggest requires volunteers to organize, as well as participate. If you really want to see the NSS-CDS have those type of activities, re-join, and volunteer to organize something. The few active volunteers we have now, put in long hard hours every month. They just don't have time to do EVERYTHING!

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Not asking for everything, just asking for SOMETHING.



If those that are part of the organization don't think its worth doing more, it probably isn't... and won't be worth my time until it is. Crazy ain't it.





Aren't all the organizations volunteer based? I think they are... even the ones who get things done. Weak argument.

[Patrick shad]

The Divers Abode is the closest accommodations to Little River Springs. Very reasonable rates. Located 10 min from Little River and close to Peacock Springs.

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