Scenario: OW diver asks you where is the cave.

[Hammerhead Ferrari]

Originally Posted by a64pilot
In KIlleen Tx you could go through a drive in and get a frozen alcoholic drink that even had a straw in it, there were also "beer Barns" where you could drive through and get alcoholic beverages without having to get out of the car.

Originally Posted by Jax
Boy, are you dating yourself!

Not really, I was just in Kileen early this week...don't know about the "frozen alcoholic drink with a straw in it", but I saw several drive-through liquor stores in Texas. Just saw one in Iowa today as well

[a64pilot]

I sat through my daughter's PADI o/w class a few years ago and it was never brought up.

You may be right, admittedly it was a cave diver that taught my kids open water, and I think location plays into it as well, when there are river caves within a few miles of the shop it comes to mind more easily.

IF avoidance of overhead environments isn't a teaching point in ALL open water certifications, then our cave diving agencies ought to lobby for that. How hard could it be to teach stay out of caves, and possibly "A deceptively easy way to die" be a required part of the program?

[Real1628]

You may be right, admittedly it was a cave diver that taught my kids open water, and I think location plays into it as well, when there are river caves within a few miles of the shop it comes to mind more easily.

IF avoidance of overhead environments isn't a teaching point in ALL open water certifications, then our cave diving agencies ought to lobby for that. How hard could it be to teach stay out of caves, and possibly "A deceptively easy way to die" be a required part of the program?

Thanks for saying this. I think it is something we need to work on and have made a personal commitment to do it. One thing I've noticed over the years is that the diving community has actually done a pretty good job of warning new divers that there is danger in overhead environments. We have failed by not hammering home exactly what the dangers are. Just saying stay out of the caves or don't go inside the shipwreck isn't enough. We have to get specific as to why and how the dangers occur. I think there are several reasons we haven't done that, aside from a little "I'm better than you." arrogance. You don't want to impart too much knowledge for fear it will pass for training in the new diver's mind. The trick is to give them enough info to scare the heck out of them but not enough to allow "self training." That video is great and I'd like to see it updated. The message is almost perfect and it really hits home. Maybe with a new modern version written and narrated as well as the old one we could lobby the training agencies to make it a requirement. Anybody want to help?

[wingman]

This would make for a very interesting application of protection motivation theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect...ivation_Theory) from the social psychology literature. Normally the model is applied in health risk contexts but a recreational risk approach related to introductory diving would be interesting...cave risk is only one of many risks an intro open water diver faces and looking at media based interventions to reduce undesired (maladaptive) behaviors, eg. entering overhead would be useful. It would be fun to develop a set of interventions (easy way to die and alternative versions as treatments) and then test their efficacy in actual training environments. Results would be publishable and it would probably be possible to generalize them to other recreational activities that involve risk. I hope Skip sees this as it is an area he might be interested in as well. Bill

[Real1628]

This would make for a very interesting application of protection motivation theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect...ivation_Theory) from the social psychology literature. Normally the model is applied in health risk contexts but a recreational risk approach related to introductory diving would be interesting...cave risk is only one of many risks an intro open water diver faces and looking at media based interventions to reduce undesired (maladaptive) behaviors, eg. entering overhead would be useful. It would be fun to develop a set of interventions (easy way to die and alternative versions as treatments) and then test their efficacy in actual training environments. Results would be publishable and it would probably be possible to generalize them to other recreational activities that involve risk. I hope Skip sees this as it is an area he might be interested in as well. Bill

If it will convince the O/W training agencies then I'm all for it. The Psych 101 class I took in college probably doesn't qualify me though LOL

[Randy Thornton]

A couple of years ago, while diving at Little River, a father and son team with single 80s, snorkels, pistol grip lights, etc. approached me while I was just getting ready to enter the water. They asked me if I had been in the cave earlier in the day and how the conditions were. I was quite startled to think that they were even considering entering the water. After questioning them about their training and equipment choices, I did my best to persuade them to call off their dive, but it was to no avail. The father stated that he had been diving Little River since the 70s and that it was time to show his son the ropes. I was very concerned about what was unfolding, so I waited inside the cave and waited until they passed me in a whirl of silt and bad trim etc. I then shadowed them until they turned their dive about 10 mins. later at which time I confronted them again and helped escort them from the cave. Once they were at the surface, I again tried to speak to them about the inherent dangers of what they were attempting to do. Unfortunately, at this point, the father felt as though he was being belittled in front of his son and basically told me to drop dead and get out of their space!

When I came up from my dive a hour or so later, the father and son were in the parking lot having a raging argument about whether or not it was safe to dive in the cave. If nothing else, I perhaps was able to start a little "discussion" between the two of them and hopefully caused them to stop and think before engaging in something as stupid as what they were doing. I personally hate to act at the "cave police" but feel that as cave divers it is our responsibility to reach out to people when we see them doing something that is this dangerous. Additionally, I would hate to see some governmental intervention with the caves, as that will probably not end up being to anyone's benefit. Better that a couple of guys go away with their toes stepped on, than a couple of dead bodies in the cave that need to be recovered. The trick is doing it in such a way as to make it a learning experience for them instead of just having them "tune out"!

[wingman]

If it will convince the O/W training agencies then I'm all for it. The Psych 101 class I took in college probably doesn't qualify me though LOL

Not for the modeling part but developing alternative video, brochures, and other media requires just diving knowledge and experience for appropriate content and then there is help with survey questions and agency contact assistance...many tasks to be accomplished...maybe a good basis for a cooperative project between the nss/cds and the nacd.

[Real1628]

Not for the modeling part but developing alternative video, brochures, and other media requires just diving knowledge and experience for appropriate content and then there is help with survey questions and agency contact assistance...many tasks to be accomplished...maybe a good basis for a cooperative project between the nss/cds and the nacd.

I'm in. Where do we start?

[JamesK]

I'd love to help anyway I possibly can even if it means modeling. As long as I don't have to be the bikini-clad open water diver who dies.

[Real1628]

I'd love to help anyway I possibly can even if it means modeling. As long as I don't have to be the bikini-clad open water diver who dies.

Why not?!?!?!? LOL