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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesK View Post
    So very true. A loser pays system would put an end to nonsense such a this. What is sad is that even if the companies involved are guilty of nothing, they could possibly settle because in the long run it could cost them less and they would avoid having their name drug through the mud.

    To think that so many good people could have their names soiled because of this, including Wes.
    Under certain conditions, the loser does pay. And, in all likelihood, the plaintiff's attorney will not get paid unless the suit is successful. The entity that makes the decision to settle this case will most likely be the insurance companies that represent the defendants. It's not unusual for settlement terms to be confidential, so we may never hear what the final resolution is, though we would be able to see if the case was dismissed by the plaintiff.


  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jax View Post
    Right.

    You've obviously not run into the opportunistic ones that do their homework and hit up the grieving family in the middle of the anger cycle, and convince them that *someone* ought to pay.
    The rules in Alabama and Florida prohibit a lawyer from direct solicitation. Florida specifically prohibits contact by person, by telephone, or fax (even telegraph!). You can send a letter or email, but you have to pepper it with "Legal Advertisement", and send a copy of the letter to the Bar. This guy's going to wait two years and risk his practice for a single case?

    Alabama seems to like to pull bar licenses temporarily for bar violations, Florida lets you keep your license, but they put you in prison (I guess they figure you can do some pro-bono work while you're inside)

    The legal community is representative of the general population. You have good folks, and bad. You usually only hear about the bad ones. Blaming lawyers for too many lawsuits is like blaming a cop for a speeding ticket. It's fun to do both, but ultimately it's the plaintiff (or the driver) that's responsible.


  3. #43

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    The Wes fatality affected me and puzzled (i.e concerned) me a lot.

    The AI O2 Cell he used, I believe, were serial numbers 80970568, 81080697, 81080695 ( http://www.allenhost.com/gallery/v/S...nsors.jpg.html ).

    This means two were from the same batch and produced October 2008.

    One was from a different batch and produced September 2008 (one month earlier).

    Nonetheless, all pretty much same/similar manufacturing date.

    Having dived quite a bit the AI O2 Cells, they do not last longer than 12 months (my personal experience under my condition of use).

    The manufacturer (AI) actually marks them now, as a practice subsequently to Wes' fatality, with a maximum use limit (expiration date) of 15 months after manufacturing date (see http://www.rebreathermallorca.com/video/safety/ai1.jpg ).

    Wes died on 21 July 2010 - which makes the O2 Cells VERY VERY OLD and should have been binned long before the fatal accident.

    The problem, and reason for my post, is that Wes and other divers were not aware at the time of the limitations of the O2 Cells.

    The Teledyne tended to last longer (up to 3 years) from date of manufacturer, but other makes do not last as long.

    Specifically, the AIs are now actually marked with an expiration date of 15 months from production date (but the more exposed they are to O2 the less they will last, which means the more you dive them, the sooner they will fail).

    The AIs, which I like and dive (same as I like and dive the new ISC/Vandagraph O2 Cells) have a very peculiar failure mode.

    They can test fine to 2 bar O2 and one week later they die unexpectedly. They tend to become dangerously unsafe over a very short period of time (days).

    I noted in particular, and this is common with other makes of O2 Cells, that some weeks before they die, they start becoming erratic for very brief periods of time. Maybe they suddenly jump to 1.2 pPO2 when they should read 1.0 pPO2 and then over 20 - 30 seconds they slowly drift back down to 1.0 pPO2.

    Also, although accurate, they tend to become visibly slower relative to the other O2 cells in the rebreather (this before they eventually die).

    Even if only 6 or 9 months old, when they begin to behave like this, and even if they work fine in use, I bin them and buy new ones.

    This is a video of how an AI O2 cells behaved recently. It had tested fine to 90 meters in air in the pressure chamber one week prior to the video. It was dived fine and worked "fine" during the dive just before the video was taken (reach your own conclusions from the video):

    http://www.rebreathermallorca.com/vi...ng0.64pPO2.mp4

    Please, bin your O2 Cells if they start to behave even for a brief period in an erratic manner.

    Please, bin your O2 cells if they are older than 1 year FROM MANUFACTURING DATE EVEN IF THEY WORK FINE.

    The current technology has limitations and my purpose of this post far from apportioning blame on anybody is simply to express my views on the subject of O2 Cells and safety based on my direct personal experience (and factual data from Wes fatality).


  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by gianaameri View Post
    The problem, and reason for my post, is that Wes and other divers were not aware at the time of the limitations of the O2 Cells.
    This is total BS. As I did my CCR course the month before his death. The first thing we had to do was check our sensors and make sure they weren't more than 12 months old. I had 3 Teledyne's and had to throw one out since it was past the 12 month mark. If you use ANY cell past that time, you are playing with your life and are an idiot. You dive a $10k piece of equipment, spend $100 on a sensor.

    Last edited by Sludge; 07-26-2012 at 09:44 AM. Reason: removed profanity

  5. #45
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    I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can tell you my opinion. Terri has the right to sue any damn body she wants to. So do you, so do I. We do have courts for a reason. Sure, scream personal responsibility all you want to, but there is always someone left over after your personal responsibility has just killed your dumb ass. If you don't think so, just think about the Wayne's World lawsuit.

    The details of Wes's accident were hushed up. No one wanted to discuss it openly, who knows why. If Mark touched the rebreather after the accident, he should be part of the lawsuit. If Lamar asked him to do so, he should be also. That is just dumb and there are penalties for being dumb. There is a chain of custody to be maintained and rules associated with it, and if the police gave the unit to them, they should be part of it also. That was dumb. Now, even if the rebreather worked perfectly, the results of the inspection are null. If I had a defective rebreather and it just malfunctioned and cacked someone, hell I would ask someone to look at it just to get the results thrown out.

    A disinterested third party, such as the Coast Guard should have inspected the unit, even if they hired a group of globus monkeys to perform the inspection. The results could have been contested, and the evidence impounded, and then both plaintiff and defendant could have hired experts to re examine the unit.

    If Wes had no bail out, that was dumb. If he was not trained on that unit, that was dumb. If the people he was diving with knew he was not trained on the unit, then the whole dive was dumb. All of us train for and plan for equipment failures, and get used to our equipment. A lot of us get too comfortable and believe that we can overcome anything. Wes could not.

    What to I think will happen, everyone's insurance companies will get lawyers, argue and fuss for a year or so until it quiets down, and everyone will settle, sing Kumbaya, and agree not to disclose any of the terms of the settlement.

    And Jim, my friend, you are not going to get anyone to agree to tort reform as long as we keep electing attorneys to public office. That's like getting a diving instructor to agree to abolish certification cards.

    Last edited by OFG-1; 07-26-2012 at 07:45 AM.
    "Have you ever noticed
    When you're feeling really good
    There's always a pigeon
    That'll come shiat on your hood?" John Prine 4-7-2020

    "Into the blue again; in the silent water
    Under the rocks, and stones; there is water underground" Talking Heads

  6. #46
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    gianaameri -

    That linearity chart is interesting. I'm wondering if Wes properly calibrated the unit prior to diving?


  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFG-1 View Post
    The details of Wes's accident were hushed up. No one wanted to discuss it openly, who knows why.
    Well, there was this post
    http://saferccr.com/ccrforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5
    One of the main reasons I started this forum was so that we can share and discuss information and theories on accidents. Most times we will not be able to come to consensus on the cause but we can identify practices or instances where something could have increased risk to the diver and by speaking of these situations we're becoming more aware and safer divers. We may even, eventually, be able to assign a likelihood of a particular issue/activity/practice being a cause or contributing factor to accidents.

    PLEASE RECOGNIZE THAT ALL DISCUSSION ON ACCIDENTS ARE REALLY THEORETICAL AND ANYTHING POSTED HERE IS SIMPLY THE OPINION OF THE POSTER. Every single one of use could end up being discussed on a forum such as this. If I should die while on a rebreather I want discussion to take place. I want my gear analyzed, my practices questioned, etc and I want those results shared. Please show respect to the deceased in all your posts as there's a chance his/her family and friends may find themselves reading our discussions. I have (I think) removed linkage to this forum from Google search results because I don't want people chancing on these discussions. They really are meant for rebreather divers' to review so that we can positively impact safety in our hobby. We owe that, at a minimum, to our families and friends.

    Wes Skiles was an incredibly skilled artist and had vast diving experience, far more than almost anyone who will comment on this thread. I long admired his work and was, even though I never met him, very saddened by his loss. I've known other rb divers who have died on their units (admittedly I only knew them on the internet but interacted with them fairly regularly) but for some reason Wes's death hit me harder. I believe it's because he was such an icon. He expressed what I think most of us feel when diving to all those out there who don't and likely will never dive. Through his work he got across the sensation of being underwater and seeing the intricate workings of the undersea environment. His death was a loss for the world not just his close friends and family. I hope that by discussing accidents, his included, we can minimize the chance that the next great underwater artist is lost to the world. Condolences to his family, friends, and fans.

    I have received copies of reports on the Wes Skiles accident from a friend who gained access to them through freedom of information policies in the state of FL. Components of Wes Skiles' unit were sent out for testing in hopes of identifying causes or contributing factors to his death.

    The autopsy concluded that Wes died by drowning. There was moderate pulmonary edema and frothy fluid in his airway--evidence of barotrauma. Seven milliliters of clear fluid was found in the ethmoid sinus.

    According to the Medical Examiner’s report (summarizing here, not word for word):

    Four divers were diving approximately 3 miles east of the Boynton Beach Inlet. The divers went to a depth of approximately 76 ft. Near the end of the dive, Wes indicated to other divers that he was going to ascend to change out film/batteries. He was reported to have followed a line to the surface. Approximately 10 to 15 minutes later the other divers began their ascents. As they ascended the rope they looked down and saw Wes lying prone on the reef. The “regulator” was not in his mouth and he was unresponsive. His camera had drifted away from his body. The other divers brought him to the surface and placed him on the boat. The Coast Guard was contacted and CPR was initiated.

    One of those on the boat reports that Wes put in new scrubber material and ran through pre-dive checks completing a pre-dive checklist. Seas were 4 to 5 ft with winds that were “not too strong”. The dive started around 1pm. When Wes was brought to the surface and CPR started copious amounts of water and vomit came out of his mouth and foam was observed in his nose and mouth. He did not respond to resuscitation attempts. Wes had not complained of any physical issues prior to the dive.

    According to one of the other divers, conditions on the dive day were “pretty rough” with winds of 10 to 12 knots gusting to 15 or 20 knots. Waves were 4 to 6 ft with clear skies. Visibility underwater was approximately 50 ft. The boat was about 300 ft south from where they wanted to be and they made their way to the reef using the current (estimated to be 2 knots). After filling the 80 minute tape in his camera, Wes indicated to the other divers that he was heading to the surface. He proceeded North, with the current, using the dive line to ascend, and did not seem to be in a hurry or in distress. One of the other divers had previously ascended and was making his way back down to the other divers about the same time but did not see him. The three remaining divers ascended about 15 minutes after Wes started his ascent and were approximately 3 to 5 minutes into their ascent when they saw him on the reef at 55 to 60 ft. Wes was found with his arms out to the sides, mouthpiece out of his mouth, and mask still on his face. His BC was completely deflated and the rb was flooded with water. The diluent tank read zero while the O2 tank read 1100 psi. When the divers discovered Wes they attempted to provide air from an aluminum 80 bailout bottle while they ascended. Upon reaching the surface, weights in Wes’s dive rig were removed and he was placed on the charter boat. There was some concern that the other divers may have had the bends due to the ascent and the foam evident from the victim. The other divers were evaluated at the hospital and were found not to need recompression.

    The second diver indicated that waves were basically 2 to 6 ft (mostly 2 to 4) and water temp was 23 Celsius. He reports visibility of 7 to 8 meters (23 to 26 ft). The area they were diving held finger like projections. After about 30 to 40 minutes at 21 to 22 meters (69 to 73 ft) they moved to a depth of 17 meters (56 ft). Three divers fed the fish while Wes filmed for about an hour. Wes appeared alert, active, and responsive the entire time. When the victim was found there was no evidence of blood or entanglement. He too witnessed Wes doing checks of the rebreather pre-dive.

    A third diver reported the conditions that day were “rough and windy” with water temp in the high 70’s and seas of 4 to 6 ft. He reports that the dive started at 2 pm and that Wes was the first one in so that he could film the other divers. Wes had not been diving previously that day. This diver was on open circuit so returned to the surface after ~45 minutes and then re-entered the water ~35 minutes later. He estimates he had been back in the water for 25 minutes when the three divers ascended and discovered Wes’s body. This diver states that one of the other divers had a bailout bottle but it was not used on Wes during ascent. After discovering the victim on the reef the three divers inflated their BC’s and ascended with him in their arms. The camera was seen about 20 or 30 feet from where the body was found but was not recovered at the same time. Upon surfacing, this diver experienced tingling, a headache, and vomited. This diver witnessed, on the night prior to the dive, Wes change the scrubber cartridge and perform a pre-dive check.

    The unit was examined by an RB instructor for that model of rb and found to be functional. The O2 sensors and scrubber cartridge were sent to NEDU (Navy Experimental Diving Unit) for analysis while the tanks, one diluent and one oxygen, were sent to Lawrence Factor for analysis.

    The following comes from the reports mentioned above:

    Three AI O2 sensors and the ExtendAir cartridge were sent to NEDU for testing. The cartridge was exposed to 1.6L/min of CO2 and was determined to still be effective at scrubbing exhaled CO2. The three sensors were tested for linearity with the results shown in the table linked here:


    It appears that, at the time of testing, 2 of the 3 sensors were below AI guidelines for acceptable use (8.5 to 13 mV). One was 7.9, the next 8.3, and the third 11.2. While they were below guidelines, they appear to be relatively linear:


    The tanks were sent to Lawrence Factor for analysis. The contents of the O2 bottle was 99.7% O2 with everything else within expected levels. The diluent bottle failed testing likely because it was empty and failed for the presence of unknowns (may have had water inside).

    Wes was using a Shearwater Pursuit dive computer at the time of the accident but it was not connected to the sensors so there is no log of PPO2 throughout the dive. A printout of the dive profile was provided to the coroner and I will post it here. The examination of the unit by the RB instructor resulted in a report and portions of it were videotaped. The video from Wes’s camera was also reviewed during the investigation.

    Here is a picture of the dive computer output (sorry it's a little hard to read):

    -James Garrett
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slüdge View Post
    ...AL...he's just about worthless for anything other than giving you extra gas.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jj1987 View Post
    Well, there was this post
    Sorry, I do not troll but one diving forum, and sadly, it is this one. Hadn't seen this.

    "Have you ever noticed
    When you're feeling really good
    There's always a pigeon
    That'll come shiat on your hood?" John Prine 4-7-2020

    "Into the blue again; in the silent water
    Under the rocks, and stones; there is water underground" Talking Heads

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by LLWS View Post
    gianaameri -

    That linearity chart is interesting. I'm wondering if Wes properly calibrated the unit prior to diving?
    I can tell you I properly calibrated the morning of my dive the AI O2 Cell in my video in my prior post below and that I tested the same O2 Cell a week prior to 90 meters in air in the pressure chamber. I can also tell you that I dived that O2 Cell and it performed perfectly in line with the others. However, when exposed to air at the end of the dive, it read +/- 0.6 pPO2, when it should have read 0.21 pPO2 (like the others).

    Crazy stuff, and it is a 1 year old O2 Cell (see http://www.rebreathermallorca.com/video/safety/ai2.jpg)... was when the problem occurred.

    Now, that one has gone in the bin (garbage).

    I have another AI O2 Cell with an interesting behavior (soon to go in the bin too) and I think it is about 6 months old. It keeps underreading (by .10) in use, even though I calibrate it to 1.0 pPO2 in 100% O2. It is clearly slower than the others during calibration... it takes maybe a minute or two minutes to get to 1.0 pPO2 when calibrating.

    Will do a video of that tonight when I calibrate and post it.

    My point, it may calibrate correctly, but it may not perform correctly in use - this usually for O2 Cells reaching their end-of-life (not fresh ones), but end-of life is NOT 3 years or 18 months for AI O2 Cells, that is for sure.

    AI prints on the O2 cells an end-of-life of 15 months from manufacturing date (not more). I never had one last longer than 12 months and some required replacing before 12 months.

    So, my point, bin them after 12 months even if they work fine (no idea if the Optima or other rebreather manuals already state that, but if they don't, maybe they should)... and if they behave erratically, vote them out (and bin them).


  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcook View Post
    This is total BS. As I did my CCR course the month before his death. The first thing we had to do was check our sensors and make sure they weren't more than 12 months old. I had 3 Teledyne's and had to throw one out since it was past the 12 month mark. If you use ANY cell past that time, you are playing with your life and are an idiot. You dive a $10k piece of equipment, spend $100 on a f-ing sensor.
    Jordon cells can and do fail that are less then 12 months old. IMHO that time limit has just become a standard over time by the community and should not be a crutch for using good practices to confirm the linear operation of the cells up to and beyond the PO2 level you will use. Testing in a pressure pot, O2 flush at 20ft and not running over a 1.0 set pt are all methods to validate.

    And I agree.....I have been diving CCR for 6 years and the limitations of O2 cells was know when I started and has been discussed up and down on the forums multiple times since then.

    John



 

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