In an emergency, would you turn the dive or take a closer but unverified exit?

[Squirrel Girl]

I wondered while typing this up this morning if this was going to make it appear that I was dissing my buddies. I do not mean to. I would dive with either of them again. But I'll type this up to clarify a response I got by PM.

First off, I think the fantastic dive the day before (in addition to a few other fine dives) meant that we were in the mindset of "we dive well together and we have no problems." At least that's the way *I* thought. Second off, I did NOT signal my buddies that I was having a problem. I didn't respond with an OK, but nor did I give any signal to indicate that I had a problem. Most of the time I don't swim side by side with my buddies, but I won't dive people if they ditch their buddies, either. Third off, (well this affected my second off, too).... this was an escalating problem. So while what seemed fairly reasonable at one point, became more problematic with time. Fourth off, this happened several years ago, and I am sure I am not recalling things exactly as they happened--well all the details anyway. I believe I am correct in what I wrote, but that it probably has some gaps in what all happened. Fifth off, I believe Carl did specifically attempt to solve my problem before we went to Olsen, but my memory is fuzzy on that. I am relating the part of the incident that sticks in my mind with respect to me, under certain circumstances, that would make me willing to exit an unconfirmed exit. I *think* that Carl tried to re-attach my fin, but the problem was the zipper going down and without Carl crawling between my legs (!!), he probably wouldn't have seen that.

To repeat, I have no complaints of my buddies. Under different circumstances, had I known that "hey, I have a fin problem." I would have signaled them, they would have waited, offered to assist, etc. I have another buddy who specifically says that he doesn't overly offer to help because some people don't like others butting in (unless the person asks for help). Indeed, I've become pissed at people who monkey with me and my gear without my permission/request.

And this is perhaps my overall point. What comes across as a cut and dried "follow the rules" argument, doesn't always work that way in real life.

And finally, to make it clear to the person who PMed, me.... When I said Carl took off like a bat out of hell. No, he didn't. He swam at the same rate as we'd swum together the day before. I was me who was swimming abnormally slowly with no apparent reason. I *thought* I was swimming at the day before's rate. It was only when the fin became nearly useless, that I realized *I* was the problem.

[RN]

It depends where you are in Devil's on whether you can see light from the Ear or not. If you are on the line at the stop sign I don't believe it's visible. You have to move to the left (when facing the exit) to see daylight. I might be wrong here as I don't dive Devil's all that often, but from the few dozen dives I've done there I don't remember daylight being all that obvious until pulling the reel and swimming toward it.

Also, I agree about Peacock. Some of the lines there end up in daylight or OW - Peacock, Olsen, Challenge. But step away from the known and think of this from the unknown. That's how I responded. If I had an issue 200' from Olsen, I'd exit Olsen. But I've been there and know the route of the line. But if I was 200' from Sheck Sink, my decision would be to go back to the entrance I started from.

[FW]

It depends where you are in Devil's on whether you can see light from the Ear or not....

You can see it, but it doesn't stand out like it does at Peacock, or Jackson Blue. If you were new to the system, and in a panic, it would be easy to miss. Pretty easy to see with your light out, but that is probably the last thing you would want to do if you were making an emergency exit.

[Dsix36]

.................................Also, I agree about Peacock. Some of the lines there end up in daylight or OW - Peacock, Olsen, Challenge. But step away from the known and think of this from the unknown. That's how I responded. If I had an issue 200' from Olsen, I'd exit Olsen. But I've been there and know the route of the line. But if I was 200' from Sheck Sink, my decision would be to go back to the entrance I started from.

This is the part that bothers me. It seems that everybody is thinking that a system like Peacock, that they have been in many times and know very well, is safe to proceed to the next available exit. They are thinking that since they have been to this opening many times that it is still the same and is accessable.

Think about this: No exit is verified unless you were just there. Caves can and do change. In an emergency is not going to be the best time to find that an opening has collapsed or that the line is broken.

I have to stick with my training and say to exit the same way that I came in.

[Squirrel Girl]

It depends where you are in Devil's on whether you can see light from the Ear or not. If you are on the line at the stop sign I don't believe it's visible. You have to move to the left (when facing the exit) to see daylight. I might be wrong here as I don't dive Devil's all that often, but from the few dozen dives I've done there I don't remember daylight being all that obvious until pulling the reel and swimming toward it.

Also, I agree about Peacock. Some of the lines there end up in daylight or OW - Peacock, Olsen, Challenge. But step away from the known and think of this from the unknown. That's how I responded. If I had an issue 200' from Olsen, I'd exit Olsen. But I've been there and know the route of the line. But if I was 200' from Sheck Sink, my decision would be to go back to the entrance I started from.

I know I've seen daylight from the Ear while at the sign, though it could have been while retrieving my deco bottle. Exactly where, I don't recall, but it was basically at the sign.

In general, I would want to return the way I came. If I were turning my dive for a "mild" emergency, it would be a no brainer. But I still maintain that what's easy to say on an internet forum may be completely different in a serious cave emergency. If you're 200 feet from an unverified entrance and 1600 from your start and you have a complete fin failure where you don't think you can fin back all that to where you started at the speed you're now going -- significantly slower than what you started -- I think most people would strongly consider and actually go to that close entrance.

Yes, you're taking a risk with the unverified entrance (something not to be taken lightly). But IMHO, under a few cases, I think it's a much bigger risk trying to get out. Are you going to rely on your buddy's gas? If so, what if he has a problem? Which is the bigger risk? The unverified, but highly likely other entrance or that your buddy won't have a problem (you didn't, what makes you think they won't?).

[Dsix36]

..........

In general, I would want to return the way I came. If I were turning my dive for a "mild" emergency, it would be a no brainer. But I still maintain that what's easy to say on an internet forum may be completely different in a serious cave emergency. If you're 200 feet from an unverified entrance and 1600 from your start and you have a complete fin failure where you don't think you can fin back all that to where you started at the speed you're now going -- significantly slower than what you started -- I think most people would strongly consider and actually go to that close entrance.

Yes, you're taking a risk with the unverified entrance (something not to be taken lightly). But IMHO, under a few cases, I think it's a much bigger risk trying to get out. Are you going to rely on your buddy's gas? If so, what if he has a problem? Which is the bigger risk? The unverified, but highly likely other entrance or that your buddy won't have a problem (you didn't, what makes you think they won't?).

I have to respectfully disagree with you. You keep bringing up the loss of a fin, not that big of a deal, I have finished a dive without one of my fins. Not a fast or a pretty as usual, but completely doable. You can only plan on so many failures and there is a point when you need to just stay home. Do you really think that with still having 2/3 of your gas supply that you can not make the swim back out? Are you and you buddy both going to have gas failures at the same time?

Rely on what your training tells you and you will survive. Breaking rules can and will get people killed. I know that this all about the risk/reward aspect of it, but I don't want any new cave divers to start getting the wrong ideas.

If I thumb the dive and you want to go further in to the next exit, the next signal you will get from me is one with my middle finger and my thumb (f**k you, I am out of here).

[Sabado]

I have to respectfully disagree with you. You keep bringing up the loss of a fin, not that big of a deal, I have finished a dive without one of my fins. Not a fast or a pretty as usual, but completely doable. You can only plan on so many failures and there is a point when you need to just stay home. Do you really think that with still having 2/3 of your gas supply that you can not make the swim back out? Are you and you buddy both going to have gas failures at the same time?

Rely on what your training tells you and you will survive. Breaking rules can and will get people killed. I know that this all about the risk/reward aspect of it, but I don't want any new cave divers to start getting the wrong ideas.

If I thumb the dive and you want to go further in to the next exit, the next signal you will get from me is one with my middle finger and my thumb (f**k you, I am out of here).

+1 !

[RN]

I know I've seen daylight from the Ear while at the sign, though it could have been while retrieving my deco bottle. Exactly where, I don't recall, but it was basically at the sign.

In general, I would want to return the way I came. If I were turning my dive for a "mild" emergency, it would be a no brainer. But I still maintain that what's easy to say on an internet forum may be completely different in a serious cave emergency. If you're 200 feet from an unverified entrance and 1600 from your start and you have a complete fin failure where you don't think you can fin back all that to where you started at the speed you're now going -- significantly slower than what you started -- I think most people would strongly consider and actually go to that close entrance.

Yes, you're taking a risk with the unverified entrance (something not to be taken lightly). But IMHO, under a few cases, I think it's a much bigger risk trying to get out. Are you going to rely on your buddy's gas? If so, what if he has a problem? Which is the bigger risk? The unverified, but highly likely other entrance or that your buddy won't have a problem (you didn't, what makes you think they won't?).

Finning with one fin isn't that difficult. It's not as fast, but I can swim almost as fast. If you still have the fin in hand, you can also use it as a makeshift paddle. Been there and done that.

[CaveMD]

Finning with one fin isn't that difficult. It's not as fast, but I can swim almost as fast. If you still have the fin in hand, you can also use it as a makeshift paddle. Been there and done that.

Jet fins make a half way decent shovel in a sand/mud restriction as well.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

[Squirrel Girl]

Finning with one fin isn't that difficult. It's not as fast, but I can swim almost as fast. If you still have the fin in hand, you can also use it as a makeshift paddle. Been there and done that.

Well, maybe my cave diving instructor didn't train me well enough at one finned swimming, but my buddies wound up going a LOT faster than I did. The second incident where it happened was in open water and I'll skip the long series of other problems that happened on that dive, but while swimming, I was MUCH slower. In the open water, I had clipped off my fin (maybe not the best idea, but given the other problems and that I was near to shore, that's what I did). I entered a current where I was getting swashed away and swam with all my might (and arms) and actually made some progress. My buddy grabbed my arm, pulled me out of the current... and then let go. :-p It wasn't too far to shore at that point, but I was ever so much slower than he was.

I think we all know that it's a cascade of issues that are the serious problems, and boy did that dive have 'em! When it's just one thing, many/most problems are handle-able. When they cascade, then you've got your hands full.