'Disappeared' at Vortex Incident?

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Those sensationalizing the story are simply in it for money.

Hit the nail on the head, IMO

[Walter Pickel]

It's everywhere; shameless! For all tall tales, all one must do is follow the money. Who is benefiting and why? I, honestly, know no one that is so altruistic that they will invest thousands of dollars of their own money not to make a return. I am not saying that in and of itself is bad; I just wish people would be honest about their intention.

[piranha]

It's everywhere; shameless! For all tall tales, all one must do is follow the money. Who is benefiting and why? I, honestly, know no one that is so altruistic that they will invest thousands of dollars of their own money not to make a return. I am not saying that in and of itself is bad; I just wish people would be honest about their intention.

I wish for world peace...
Wonder who will get their wish first

[TJDiver]

My wife and I did a lot of dives at Vortex prior to our full cave training. I was always stunned at the obvious luring of untrained divers into the system at Vortex.
There was a large pull rope and lights leading back into the cave.
Years ago they even had a chamber at 300' divers could come up and breathe old air and chitchat....
The visitors are clueless about the dangers.

That said: death is a terrible sadness.

"Obvious" is an understatement...open invitation and urging is more like what we experienced. About a year before my Intro cert, my son and I visited Vortex during a family vacation. We just went to shoot some video in OW for my son's color absorption science project. When we signed in, we were invited by management (maybe owner?) to "check out the cave"...actually urged to check it out...all the way back to the gate. We informed him we were not trained for overhead environments, but he assured us that OW divers did it all the time, and that it was safe. My son and I have the good fortune to dive/train with a shop chocked full of tech/cave divers, and had had plenty of warning/advice about overhead environments at the time. I cringe at the thought of such invitations extended to those coming from less vigilant shops and training programs.

[Jax]

My recollection is that his brother said it. I am reasonably confident of that because my thought when I heard the guy say it was "who is that moron?", and then paid attention until I discovered he was the brother.

His girlfreind did not state it but instead stated that he had spent hours and hours studying books, highlighting secitons in books, making plans and drawing maps - which <sarcasm on> caused me to sigh with relief that he had learned to cave dive from books rather than off the internet <sarcasm off>.

Edd, being the voice of sanity and reason on the show stated that taking an OW sidemount course gave him the tools to dive there but not the knowledge. I'd have expanded on that to include "not the knolwedge, skills or ability".

In general though we, the cave diving community, and the internet posting cave divers in general got washed with the brush that we all think Ben was a moron for diving in a cave without proper training and certification.

I can't speak for the whole community, but I'll plead guilty as charged in thinking anyone diving in a cave without proper certification is in fact a moron.

The shovel thing isn't wierd. I can't imagine Edd, etc all missing it. I can imagine the shovel being left there by another cave diver in the intervening months. Maybe even one with grand plans to dig his way to Ben's body and the reward.

Generally speaking the simplest and most plausible explanation for something will be more lilkely to be the correct explanation and another diver leaving it there between the search and the filming by Jill is more plausible than it being missed initally.

I remember it as the brother saying it, and agree with the above on what the GF said.

Heck, I agree with everything said above.

[DA Aquamaster]

The interesting thing about civil court is the does NOT have to be a "shadow of a doubt", all that is required is the "weight" of the evidence (preponderance of the evidence).

You don't need any evidence at all to sue someone in civil court, or even to get money out of the defendant. Even a frivolous lawsuit is likely to result in a settlement as most insurance companies are hesitant to actually take anything to court.

But we are not talking about wrong ful death suits, we're talking about some degree of criminal liability and that requires demonstration of intent (negligent, reckless or otherwise) as well as a higher standard of evidence.

[Benderr]

You don't need any evidence at all to sue someone in civil court, or even to get money out of the defendant. Even a frivolous lawsuit is likely to result in a settlement as most insurance companies are hesitant to actually take anything to court.

Not in Federal Court. You may be able to FILE the suit without evidence, but it will be dismissed very quickly unless facts are included in the complaint. You MUST have well-pleaded factual allegations IN the complaint. You're not allowed to develop these facts in discovery, you have to have them from the get-go.

I've said it before. A citizen's access to the court system shrinks every day.

[floridakid]

I remember it as the brother saying it, and agree with the above on what the GF said.

Heck, I agree with everything said above.

My favorite thing is how the family accused everyone except Jill of not actually going where they said they had been. I find just the thought of that accusation downright offensive.

[a64pilot]

My favorite thing is how the family accused everyone except Jill of not actually going where they said they had been. I find just the thought of that accusation downright offensive.

Especially considering how much they were all paid to help out.

[tflaris]

TV Drama. We all know the efforts put forth. The outside looking in doesn't have a clue.


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