Caves appropriate for intro level

[MORGAN]

Agreed! Well put, Lynne!

[jj1987]

James and a64, how about scrolling up and seeing what I posted earlier. There's no hidden agenda. I thought about this for a couple days, sent out some emails, then posted for more opinions. If that's so hard to grasp then maybe you guys need to evaluate your own attitudes. Not every question has to have a hidden agenda.

Also, James, the instructor does not teach for any of the agencies I teach for. And even if he did, this isn't about making anyone look bad. It was about getting confirmation or learning that my own standards may be too strict. Believe it or not, not all of us have such unbending opinions of things. Some of us have open minds and try to learn from things like this.

I'm not sure what my rebuttal has anytning to do with this. Please explain.

Also, all my overhead students are clear on the standards. That wasn't the issue. They immediatelty knew Maunds and Pot were inappropriate. Maddachalk is questionable, as is evidenced in this thread. Bozell is not within limits but this isn't evident until several minutes into the dive. Did you ever stop to consider that before throwing out accusations that my students don't understand the rules? Theyy understood them clearly and acted on that understanding before they violated any rules.

And Ben did not take any overhead training with me. I did have him as a student and when he tried to go into one of the manmade caverns at Vortex I pulled him back by his leg, we ascended, and had a stern discussion about going into the overhead without training. It couldn't be much more clear than that. James, you think you know what you're talking about but you don't. You're way off the mark and I suggest you step back and think before you type and make accusations like that.

Rob,

Given the fatality today, I think it would be best if we each leave this discussion be. I apologize for the confusion, I misinterpreted your earlier post.

[CaveMD]

Having just dove maddachalk, I don't see what about it makes it inappropriate for intro divers? Granted it's probably not the best one for fresh out of class intro cave but it has a single continuous line with no T's all the way to the EOL a couple thousand feet back. The only side passages are jumps. Max depth was 39'. The only somewhat smaller parts were one of the jumps that I had to wiggle through to get back to main line but there was nothing else I recall having to push through. Near the EOL the flow picks up and the passage gets a good bit smaller but most intro's wont make it that far on 1/6's.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Mattachalk is extremely collapsy for one thing. Most of the walls and ceiling there aren't solid, hency the "chalk" part of Mattachalk. The cave doesn't take well to contact.




All that being said, it used to be used as a training cave in the 90s.

[jdsffa]

"I think the solution is for instructors to have a candid conversation with every student with regard to the limitations of their training, rather than the rules as written on their certification. " quote

This should be happening no matter what and I think it the take home message of this whole thread. Each diver I have ever certified in any class has been different. The rules are there for a reason and they should be paid attention too, but there is a lot of gray area in cave diving as we all know that. these gray areas have to be discussed between instructor and student, and I always tell each of my students where they are in terms of skill and what these areas are. This being said, ( I have not dove either of these caves) there is a long way from physical skill and what you will do when the #### actually hits the fan ( mental skill) and that can only be learned through practice and making those mistakes. It sounds to me that these caves would not be as forgiving if major problem was to occur and thus should not be dove by intro level divers (again going on what I have read here). I think Sheck's book said it very well ya have to go through the little problems to survive the big one's later and any one who say's they haven't had one of those big problems has either not been cave diving long enough or they are lying for some reason I could not fathom. I tell this to each and every one of my students and I hope everyone else does as well.

[LiteHedded]

"I think the solution is for instructors to have a candid conversation with every student with regard to the limitations of their training, rather than the rules as written on their certification. " quote

This should be happening no matter what and I think it the take home message of this whole thread. Each diver I have ever certified in any class has been different. The rules are there for a reason and they should be paid attention too, but there is a lot of gray area in cave diving as we all know that. these gray areas have to be discussed between instructor and student, and I always tell each of my students where they are in terms of skill and what these areas are. This being said, ( I have not dove either of these caves) there is a long way from physical skill and what you will do when the #### actually hits the fan ( mental skill) and that can only be learned through practice and making those mistakes. It sounds to me that these caves would not be as forgiving if major problem was to occur and thus should not be dove by intro level divers (again going on what I have read here). I think Sheck's book said it very well ya have to go through the little problems to survive the big one's later and any one who say's they haven't had one of those big problems has either not been cave diving long enough or they are lying for some reason I could not fathom. I tell this to each and every one of my students and I hope everyone else does as well.

totally agree with this

[RN]

"I think the solution is for instructors to have a candid conversation with every student with regard to the limitations of their training, rather than the rules as written on their certification. " quote

This should be happening no matter what and I think it the take home message of this whole thread. Each diver I have ever certified in any class has been different. The rules are there for a reason and they should be paid attention too, but there is a lot of gray area in cave diving as we all know that. these gray areas have to be discussed between instructor and student, and I always tell each of my students where they are in terms of skill and what these areas are. This being said, ( I have not dove either of these caves) there is a long way from physical skill and what you will do when the #### actually hits the fan ( mental skill) and that can only be learned through practice and making those mistakes. It sounds to me that these caves would not be as forgiving if major problem was to occur and thus should not be dove by intro level divers (again going on what I have read here). I think Sheck's book said it very well ya have to go through the little problems to survive the big one's later and any one who say's they haven't had one of those big problems has either not been cave diving long enough or they are lying for some reason I could not fathom. I tell this to each and every one of my students and I hope everyone else does as well.

Very well said! I tell my students similar things. Until recently I didn't think I needed to be as specific as to name what caves are appropriate and what caves are not, though.