When Things Go Wrong

[DogHouseDiver]

How about we just wait until we truly find out what happened instead of playing this guessing who to point the finger at game.

+1.... I don't want to push those involved away from posting a report here by making a lot of assumptions, assigning a lot of blame, etc.
I want to encourage them to tell us, but if we beat them up before they have a chance to collect themselves and tell their story, they may never participate.

We have a chance to learn from this because everyone survived. I encourage those involved to report in to us and I for one won't dogpile them in my discussion.
Much better chance to learn than asking recovery divers how they found the bodies.

[PfcAJ]

Good ol boys keeping secrets at the expense of everyone else learning from the mistakes of others. It's a real shame.

[JerseyJersey]

Since there are 10 pages analyzing a situation that may or may not have happened, why not just come up with a different scenario each week and let everyone have their run with it. The learning seems to come from the disucssion and differnces in opinion and how to handle the situation.

I learn something from everyones thoughts, whether I agree with them or not.

[OFG-1]

Nine pages? Really?

Cave diving is not some governmental operation that functions under freedom of information rules. You have no right to know anything. If the people involved are generous enough to tell you of their incidents, be grateful, but don't continue to bash the hell out of anyone else that believes that their misery is none of your business. It isn't.

The same goes for the IUCRR reports. They list what they see in a snapshot of a recovery operation. This is not investigative reporting. You wonder why they are reluctant to release anything? Read the last 4 or 5 pages, that's why.

I will agree that the WKPP was a class act for openly discussing their member's accident a few months ago, and I do wish everyone would set the same example, but personal liberty and a right to privacy exists. If I was one of the divers this last weekend, after reading this tripe, I would tell you all to F.O.

ps - It is a good thing they didn't drown, Edd would have really been pissed.

[Kevin Carlisle]

OFG. Edd wasn't exactly happy

[whitecrowro]

It's an incident that went well. Let it grow famous. Or we got used to learn only from death ending stories?!

[graepaep]

+1.... I don't want to push those involved away from posting a report here by making a lot of assumptions, assigning a lot of blame, etc.
I want to encourage them to tell us, but if we beat them up before they have a chance to collect themselves and tell their story, they may never participate.

+1 I wouldn't be surprised if these guys are still trying to come to terms with and still trying to sort through what happened. I've had some close calls (not cave diving) that have given me a few sleepless nights. Sometimes you don't realize how close of a call it was until its over and you sit down and think about what just happened. Even the people involved here probably didn't realize how bad it was until it was over. Do you think the students knew their instructor had left the cave?

This was a really bad situation that had a really good ending and a lot of stuff had to go just right to get that ending.

We have a chance to learn from this because everyone survived.

I completely agree

[kwinter]

Since there are 10 pages analyzing a situation that may or may not have happened, why not just come up with a different scenario each week and let everyone have their run with it. The learning seems to come from the disucssion and differnces in opinion and how to handle the situation.

I learn something from everyones thoughts, whether I agree with them or not.

I agree completely. If people would be willing to talk about hypothetical situations, the finger pointing would be a lot less.

When it comes to accident analysis, it has to be based on facts, not assumptions or guesses. And the length of this thread proves that people aren't willing to wait for facts. And some are angry that facts are not available immediately. Patience is a lost art, probably fueled by the lack of facts that ever come out. But shouting at the rain doesn't do anything.

In very basic form, accident analysis will only tell you one of two things. Either standards were violated and caused the accident, or they weren't violated and something else caused it. In the first case, there is really nothing to be learned. Let it go, stop finger pointing, and reinforce your own training.

It is only in the second case that there MAY be something to learn, and might ultimately involve a change in training standards.

Those who have already decided without first-hand facts that
a) the incident involved students in a teaching situation
b) the instructor abandoned the students
c) the instructor did so without valid reason (medical, etc)
have already done their analysis. Facts will only confuse them, and their goal is not to further cave diving knowledge for safety, but only to blame someone and make sure s/he is ridiculed and punished. That is not accident analysis IMHO.

[Wizard]

I can't imagine an instructor bailing out. The agencies involved really need a full report on this one.
For me knowing what happened, wasn't me so I really don't need to know the details. May help, may not. It's not my call.
But it sends shivers down my back. This was a miracle that the right person did the right thing at the right time.
God bless you Edd!

[JamesK]

I agree completely. If people would be willing to talk about hypothetical situations, the finger pointing would be a lot less.

When it comes to accident analysis, it has to be based on facts, not assumptions or guesses. And the length of this thread proves that people aren't willing to wait for facts. And some are angry that facts are not available immediately. Patience is a lost art, probably fueled by the lack of facts that ever come out. But shouting at the rain doesn't do anything.

In very basic form, accident analysis will only tell you one of two things. Either standards were violated and caused the accident, or they weren't violated and something else caused it. In the first case, there is really nothing to be learned. Let it go, stop finger pointing, and reinforce your own training.

It is only in the second case that there MAY be something to learn, and might ultimately involve a change in training standards.

Those who have already decided without first-hand facts that
a) the incident involved students in a teaching situation
b) the instructor abandoned the students
c) the instructor did so without valid reason (medical, etc)
have already done their analysis. Facts will only confuse them, and their goal is not to further cave diving knowledge for safety, but only to blame someone and make sure s/he is ridiculed and punished. That is not accident analysis IMHO.

Well said. I have seen this same thing in my life outside of cave diving. I am AA trained by the Army. One of the things we learned is not jumping to conclusions or listening to the lookie loos telling us what they think could have happened.