Dive Computer Brawl

Thanks for the complement crazyduck. No, I haven’t read about Dr. Mayo and his dive that he was bent on. I plan on reading it in the near future. Thanks for turning me on to another good diving website.

I am not recommending that anyone dive with 0% conservatism. That’s an individual’s personal decision. I just happened to be running the VR3 in that mode. I usually add extra deep stops and other safety margins, if I run the VR3 with 0% conservatism. Also, I usually dive my VR3 with an external oxygen sensor in closed circuit mode. I am using the firmware version prior to the BIG LETTER upgrade.

Yes, I heard about the new VR3 upgrade and mixed user reactions to it, on a rebreather news list. Sometimes new features have bugs, which need to be corrected. I have a lot of confidence in Kevin G. It might also be good to mention the VR3 is based upon ProPlanner.

I also dive a Buddy Nexus. It is a very good nitrox computer made by A. P. Valves. Its easy to program and has both a close circuit and open circuit mode. It has a conservative setting; called dive conditions selection function, although it is limited to two options (a 0 or 1, with 0 being a normal setting and a 1 being the short table setting). Another great feature of the Nexus is that it has an auto switch depth selection function (it can be turned on or off). This feature automatically switches your oxygen setpoint in closed circuit mode, or your gas in open circuit mode, depending upon what user switch depth is programmed into the computer. You have two switch depth settings (one for descent and one for ascent). You can also override the switch depths manually. For open circuit, gas 1 is defined to be 21% - 50% and gas 2 is defined up to 100% oxygen.

I agree with you about your love / hate statement on the Cochran dive computers. I have a Nemesis IIa Nitrox dive computer. It’s a three gas nitrox dive computer. It can be programmed with a field programmer or by a personal computer. It’s capable of decompression mixes up to 99% oxygen. One of the selling points of the Nemesis IIa is its ability to be integrated wirelessly into a Cochran heads up display (HUD), which was to produce a computer screen like display inside a Cochran HUD mask. The Nemesis IIa has a large wireless transmitter, which hooks up to a high pressure port on a diver’s first stage. This sends a signal to the wrist computer. The Nemesis IIa automatically detects when you quit breathing your first gas source and it then switches to your second mix. It also has a programmable depth auto switch feature for your third gas mixture.

Cochran has a very feature rich dive computer log book and programmable interface for their dive computers called Analyst. Using Analyst you can program your dive computer with your gas mixes, switch depth and custom user parameters to tweak your individual decompression profile.

Another interesting point is a dive comparison between a VR3 and an Explorer with RBGM. The RBGM Explorer gives lots of additional deep stops (more dive table like), as opposed to the VR3 (with 0%). It takes the Explorer longer to process its RBGM computer model, so it shows a greater total time to surface. Eventually the RBGM Explorer clears before the VR3 on the shallower stops. I saw a caution about diving the RBGM Explorer on repetitive dives, on the same day, using the RBGM model.

If we venture further away from the original post, we could talk about rebreather dive computers. The Hammerhead can be used as a separate open circuit dive computer, but its primary use is to be attached to a closed circuit rebreather (CCR). It’s a trimix dive computer, which monitors three oxygen sensors and takes an average, to control the firing of a solenoid, to maintain a user defined set point (which can be changed during the dive). It has a primary and a secondary handset. The primary contains a trimix computer and the secondary controls the diva (a vibrating HUD). The Hammerhead has a user defined custom gradient factor for computing decompression. The Hammerhead can be used on many different rebreathers (Inspiration, Kiss, Mark 15, Mark 16 and the new Dive Rite CCR) and the handsets are designed to be interchangeable between different rebreathers.

I don’t know if anyone has considered starting a consortium to design a totally new dive computer. I do know many of the new trimix dive computers are evolving while I am typing on my computer. I work on computers and programming for a living. My obsession with diving (like so many others on this list), dive technology and dive computers has turned me into a divecomputeraholic. I haven't found a dive computer yet, which has all the features which I desire!

It looks like Widiver_Paul already has learned the VR3 and Mike H. has a very good point about programmable dive computers. Garbage in equates to garbage out. This is a general statement about programmable dive computers and I haven’t read Dr. Mayo’s report, so my comment doesn’t refer to his situation.

I hear a lot of people complain about the cost of dive computers (myself included). Dive computers are used for life support and most models cost less than a personal computer. How much is your life worth?

Dive safe, dive often and have fun … Chip

[crazyduck]

Correction-
The gentlemans name at snoppyloops is "Dr Jerome Meynie." My fault for not double checking. No harm was intended towards Mr. Meynie or his group.

Regards, Andrew

[ethan_brodsky]

When I was at DEMA the folks at VR3 commented that the computer should have a few new features added to it. As you know they have the bigger letters, plus multi colored segments of the screen and there was talk of revising the menu layout for easier access and learning. If a certain programmer is lurking he probably could say more- Ethan?

Somehow I have a suspicion that you're talking about me. I can't really say anything about the new "version 3.0" - I don't have mine yet and I don't get inside information. Documentation on the new features is available here:

http://www.vr3.co.uk/downloads/flyer...Guidelines.doc
http://www.vr3.co.uk/downloads/manua..._V3_manual.pdf

The menus in the VR3 really aren't that bad. At first, I had a lot of trouble with them, but then I played with it for a couple hours during a long car drive. After that, it's very intuitive - working through the menu structure becomes second nature. Everything is placed logically - once you set it up on the surface before the dive, interaction in the water is mainly "confirming" gas switches.

If anyone is considering purchasing the VR3 but is intimidated by the menus, Delta P (the manufacturer of the VR3) now has a simulator available. Note that it is intended as a "user interaction" simulator to let you get the feel for the menus and behavior. You can set it up and then go through a simulated dive and deco (in real time or at 10x speed). The only requirement is that you have a web browser that supports Java applets.

VR3 Simulator

Ethan

[Stu]

lol, the lesson being that if you really want to make the VR3's menus second nature, then start using it while driving - if you can avoid getting your car bent while working on the VR3, you can probably avoid getting bent yourself as well

(couldn't resist)

For what it's worth, I managed to get bent on one of those ultra-conservative Suuntos. Dived to plan, took the extra 11 mins of deco that the computer gave me over what I'd have done from tables on a 20 minute bottom time dive, and still got bent. I was dehydrated before starting that dive, which is probably the main reason. Sometimes, it's just going to happen.

[crazyduck]

lol, the lesson being that if you really want to make the VR3's menus second nature, then start using it while driving - if you can avoid getting your car bent while working on the VR3, you can probably avoid getting bent yourself as well

(couldn't resist)

Thats how they tested it- NASCAR! Oval track at 200 MPH, and no gators.


Just joking, the altertive requires cave line lots of trees and hanging beer bottles. After every bottle you have to confirm your gas, and hang the bottle. You cannot move back or forth more than 3ft. If so you are penlized and have to drink another beer. Renmenber 30 feet per minute between stops. IF you want to get mean blind fold the partipants and run it through a area with stumps.

Later, Andrew

[Widiver_Paul]

I really like the VR3, but its very confusing to navigate it’s menus in the beginning and you have to send it to the UK to get the computer serviced.

Chip, thanks for the really informed info on here about the computers. I'm sure by the time I get writing this, there will be a firmware change or a new computer out there!

Just thought I'd comment that I know for a fact that Kevin G. is working hard to make the company more U.S. friendly, including (censored)--------------------------------------------------------------- It's second best to having manufacturing over here, but after what happened with Abyss, I don't blame them for wanting to stay at LEAST 1000 miles away from any American attorney on his home turf.

They've also changed their pricing structure so that you're not at the whim of the International monetary exchange rates, you can now purchase with your credit card without getting penalized like you used to with an exchange fee, etc. from your CC company. They've got the new color LCD's out now (very pretty, can you see color at 300'?) and the best new feature i've been waiting for is finally on the way in, (censored)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Along with some menu changes and all the other features it looks like they're at least interested in perfecting near-perfection. Now if only they could drop the price by half and include all the upgrades!! I know, i'm asking way too much. But I can dream. I'll be selling at least one of my children on E-bay (probably the mouthiest one first) and buying one this year, i'm tired of my Uwatec going into "Oh, hell no! Now you've gone and really done it this time, you idiot!" mode after doing mixed gas dives...

-Paul

[Genesis]

Does anyone know WHEN the VR3 is going to have VPM in it? And will it be original VPM, or VPM-B?

Email to the VR3 folks over on the other side of the pond has gone unanswered.....

[Gary]

Anyone use the download and Prolog divelog for the VR3?
I'm looking for any info on Prolog - opinion/ screenshots/ anything.

How about the dive rite download software?

Thanks

[REastman]

Try this next time, Rich. Cut your tables and stick to the EXACT dive plan on the tables. Don't put 300' for 20 mins, then spend 2 mins at 300' and 18 mins ascending from 300' to 150' before starting your deco. If you put 300' for 20 mins, spend that long there. Put in realistic descent/ascent rates. I'd be willing to bet your HE will NOT get you out of the water quicker in this case.

Of course, I don't cut backup tables for max depth and run those profiles....I cut them for average depth(20ft intervals, 40ft each way of expected average). I've done quite a few mix dives with my VR3 with somebody else using an HE....and for the same profile...my VR3 always clears much faster. The Nitek series are too conservative. Call DR and ask them what the level of conservativeness is compared to their deco software....I think it's around 50%...I was told once, but don't recall the exact number. Granted, the VR3 has a bit longer runtimes than tables...but on a 250' 25 minute dive, it's usually within 3-5 minutes. The VR3 likes to deco longer at the deeper stops, and shorten the time at the shallower stops...til the 10' stop.

Mike

Not to criticize or anything, but I;ve never understood why everyone is so intent on geting out of the water so fast. Perhaps conservatism is a good thing.

Chip, thanks for the really informed info on here about the computers. I'm sure by the time I get writing this, there will be a firmware change or a new computer out there!
-Paul

You are welcome! Wow, a blast from the past.

Your timing is very bizarre, because I went to visit Gene Melton with Hydrospace Engineering on Sunday. I upgraded my Explorer to a model O and I checked out his new rebreather kit.

Anyone use the download and Prolog divelog for the VR3?
I'm looking for any info on Prolog - opinion/ screenshots/ anything.

How about the dive rite download software?

Thanks

Gary,

The VR3 interfaces with a PC by using an IR link, which is located towards the top of the VR3 display.

I have Prolog for the VR3 and it's really neat. It opens up under my name (which I defined) and it contains a dive log, gas blends and dive locations. The dive log contains my downloaded dives in the following format:
"Dive on 1/8/05 at 13:58", "Dive Log Number", "Date", "Location" and "Site".

When you double click on the dive name it pulls up a three tab page. The tabs are "General", "Profile", Gas" and "Series". The “General” tab has date, log, dive name, time down, time up, max depth, duration, buddy, location, site and dive notes. The “Profile” tab has a plot of your dive with the time, depth, average depth, max descent, max ascent, max PO2 and CNS. This page has a feature to zoom in or out and you can pinpoint a location in the plot and it will tell you the time and depth. It also has point properties, area properties, an ascent rate plot and PO2 plot. The “Gas” tab contains the mix or mixes you used on the dive. Finally, the “Series” tab gives you all the dives in that dive series.

Under “Gas Management” you can select or define gasses and setup gas profiles. These gasses can then be uploaded to the VR3. The “Locations” is an area where you setup your dive locations to be used in your dive log.

You might want to check out the Delta P Technologies web site http://www.vr3.co.uk/ because they announced “New for 2005!! The new VR PC Link Software Suite available NOW!! Click for further details”. This looks very interesting.

I also have used the Dive Rite download software called NiTek Logic version 3.03 http://diverite.com/products/nitek/logic.htm (the latest version is 3.06). It's a logbook program that downloads and stores dives from several of the Dive Rite computers (NiTek, NiTek 3 and the NiTek He). NiTek Logic interfaces with a PC through a docking station with a serial interface. You can download NiTek Logic from the Dive Rite web site to get a flavor for what it’s like.

NiTek Logic opens up into a logbook with download dive series under the main logbook. The content of each dive series contains a listing of the following information:
“Name”, “Description”, “Date”, “Time In”, “Bottom Time” and “Computer Type”. Double clicking on the “Name” brings up the dive profile in a 3D plot with the following information: Date, Orig Date, Time In, Time Out, Dive Time, Max Depth, Avg Depth, Temp, Sample rate, Mix, Decompression Dive, Deco Stop Violation, Ascent Rate Warning, Out-of-Range Error, Max Deco Violation, OLI Violation, Nitrox Range Violation, Freshwater, Gauge Mode, Safety Factor, Buddy(s) and Equipment. NiTek Logic also has an interface for the Voyager dive planning software.

Both logbooks are very nice, so it really depends upon your dive computer!