Learn some skills people

[DA Aquamaster]

Mexico offers some good examples as you'll see what amount to "doors" broken through stalagtites to allow entry into going portions of cave. And obviously if that had not been done, vast areas of cave would not be mapped or open to diving. (Of course, if you pay attention off the line, now and then you'll note a "door" that apparently did not lead anywhere significant, so obviously there is some calculated risk involved and one hopes any such decisions are made with an eye toward a careful cost/benefit analysis.

In any case, once the initial door is made, there is no reason not to make every effort at conserving the cave from that point forward.

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Cave diving can potentially place different ethical tenets in conflict with each other (cave conservation versus exploration to open up new cave passage, etc) and the key to resolving those ethical dilemmas is having a solid ethical decisionmaking framework to follow. NACD and NSS-CDS could probably do more in that regard...

Where I think it gets fuzzy is when "exploration" divers decide they just have to lay new line (without carefully considering the greater good and the overall cost/benefits of that action) and start digging, scraping and otherwise damaging the cave pushing a questionable lead.

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Sidemount diving has the potential to aggravate the situation with 1) a minority of sidemount divers who may view sidemount as a reason to wallow in the silt and/or damage cave just to get through tighter restrictions, and 2) as the flat but wide sidemount profile differs from the more traditional higher but skinnier back mount configuration, which places new wear in different areas on old restrictions - if the SM diver does not swing a tank forward, etc, to fit existing restrictions cleanly.

[DA Aquamaster]

In more then one spot on this board I have heard that this is considered vandalism... Why? I understand it looks bad and may demonstrate someone who had bad buoyancy.

We strive for perfection but the unfortunate fact is that now and then learning will occur when we fail. No one is going to call that kind of unintentional contact "vandalism" when it is something a reasonable diver could have experienced and when it was not reasonably forseeable.

However, I tend to regard 1"-2" deep hand prints in clay bottoms as "gross negligence" rather than just unintentional "bad buoyancy". It is the difference in intent, forseeability and responsibility that gives it the "vandalism" feel.

There have been a couple occasions where for one reason or another (or several that ganged up on me) I have had less than perfect buoyancy. In that case, a finger on a nearby rock was enough to stabilize the situation without doing visible damage. In another instance, I managed to put the end of the valve knob about a 1/4" into the clay on the bottom. Even though it had the saving grace of being in a training section of a cave and my mark was not noticeable among all the hand prints and fin marks, I still feel bad about it as it was truly bad form. It's the "strive for perfection" thing...

Worst case, over a silt bottom with no rock in sight to spread the load over more surface area, I could see a diver poking a finger into the bottom to prevent full contact, but the full on hand prints plastered an inch or more into the silt or clay are beyond the pale. If a diver's buoyancy is that out of control, he or she just does belong there and has the responsibility to turn the dive before they get in that situation. Sadly, I often see hand prints around duck unders that are just not that challenging. The slight duck under just past the jump to the SM tunnel in the water hole tunnel is a good example. It is not that challenging, but hand prints are common.

Obviously bouyancy control and loss of control is a matter of degree. But if a diver's buyoancy is so questionable that they are bottoming out hard enough to create hand prints, then they need to stay on the main line in training areas of the cave until they get it under control and take the personal responsibility to avoid those sensitive areas of the cave until their skills are up to the demands of the dive.

It's also a buddy issue and some self policing in teams would help, rather than createing peerr pressure for a diver to proceed into areas they cannot dive cleanly. Fr example, Ken and I took a diver/tech instructor into P1 last year whose cave diving skills were unknown. That initial dive was enough to inform us of the need to not go where we had planned as the diver with us would not be able to do it cleanly.

[Jaydubya]

I hate seeing all the full cave divers fracking up the caves. They either need remedial skills training or an attitude adjustment.

While we're on the subject I apologize for the knee prints I left in the wishbone tunnel the otherday. I descended before I had completely cleared a dune so I could go under an overhang that was in front of me. I think it's the first time I've left a mark in Peacock. I kicked myself for the next 10 minutes over that one. I don't always reach the goal but I always strive for perfection.

[Bobby]

I hate seeing all the full cave divers fracking up the caves. They either need remedial skills training or an attitude adjustment.

While we're on the subject I apologize for the knee prints I left in the wishbone tunnel the otherday. I descended before I had completely cleared a dune so I could go under an overhang that was in front of me. I think it's the first time I've left a mark in Peacock. I kicked myself for the next 10 minutes over that one. I don't always reach the goal but I always strive for perfection.

Thank you for admitting to it. We were just back there yesterday and I was rather disappointed to see the damage. We all make mistakes and touch from time to time. That one was a full crash and hopefully now you see why working up to some dives is appropriate. The Wishbone is one of the areas in Peacock that has been kept rather unmarked because it is a more skill intense.

[Xenia]

I hate seeing all the full cave divers fracking up the caves. They either need remedial skills training or an attitude adjustment.

While we're on the subject I apologize for the knee prints I left in the wishbone tunnel the otherday. I descended before I had completely cleared a dune so I could go under an overhang that was in front of me. I think it's the first time I've left a mark in Peacock. I kicked myself for the next 10 minutes over that one. I don't always reach the goal but I always strive for perfection.

Sorry man I did not know it was you and I do not know you personally. I thought that this crash came from someone that should not be back there. I have been two years full cave, cave diving for 3.5 years, and just got back there for the first time yesterday.

[LCF]

I often look at marks in the cave and wonder, "What was someone doing up THERE?" Sometimes there are marks where you just can't envision a situation where that particular part of the floor or ceiling would be likely to be hit by anyone diving in a normal, sensible fashion.

And I agree that there are parts of the cave that novices should avoid. But as you expand your horizons, you HAVE to try some things that you would have turned back from in the past -- otherwise, how WILL you learn how to read the geometry and what works and what doesn't? And some cave contact is almost inevitable when you do that. The best you can hope is that, with each trip, you will have learned more and will touch less.

When I did my Full Cave, my instructor took me to Minotauro. The first 12 minutes of that cave is small, twisty, and heavily decorated. The instructor told me to count the number of times I touched things. I lost count at about 35. I felt terrible.

The second time I did the same passage, I touched 8 times. I suspect, if I went back and dove it today, I could better that. But I had to learn.

When people leave big scooter marks in a wide open passage with no reason to be anywhere near the bottom, either they don't know how to use their scooter . . . or they were in a class and somebody threw a drill at them that they didn't handle well. Is there anybody on here who has never been in that situation?

[Xenia]

When people leave big scooter marks in a wide open passage with no reason to be anywhere near the bottom, either they don't know how to use their scooter . . . or they were in a class and somebody threw a drill at them that they didn't handle well. Is there anybody on here who has never been in that situation?

It is quit different to *touch* the cave and different to *crash* on silt and clay. In the first case, it is learning. In the second case it means you should not be there.

[DonJ]

Did you just say this:

I hate seeing all the full cave divers fracking up the caves. They either need remedial skills training or an attitude adjustment.

And then follow it up with this:

While we're on the subject I apologize for the knee prints I left in the wishbone tunnel the otherday.

Classic.

[Kevin Carlisle]

The broken formations are only from very poor buoyancy skills or from stupidity. Things do happen but you can control how bad it gets. Not a one of us hasn't kicked up silt or banged a tank. When it happens 3000 plus feet in a cave it shows poor skills and poor judgement. Slowing down would probably do wonders for them.

[Jaydubya]

Thank you for admitting to it. We were just back there yesterday and I was rather disappointed to see the damage. We all make mistakes and touch from time to time. That one was a full crash and hopefully now you see why working up to some dives is appropriate. The Wishbone is one of the areas in Peacock that has been kept rather unmarked because it is a more skill intense.

I think we are talking about something different. Mine was not a full crash. It was a very minor scrape, but nevertheless it was a scrape. I guess I used the wrong name for the tunnel I was in? From looking at the map I did not enter the Wishbone itself. It was in the tunnel that goes past the Wishbone and up to Cisteen. - I don't remember whether it was before or after the Red arrow. That passage I was in was not beyond my ability at all - it was wide open - but perhaps I was too distracted by some things going on in my life to be there that day.

Any damage is too much but clearly in my first post I made the damage sound worse than it was.