Learn some skills people

[Kevin Carlisle]

One thing that pisses me off more than unsafe divers are those with no skills going to delicate areas. Got tired of seeing broken geothite back in the middle grounds of JB today along with countless fin marks. In the smaller areas there you have a good 3ft above and below you. If you can't go through there and not break stuff, STAY OUT!! If you must go, learn buoyancy and kick skills, and maybe some finesse skills. And if you must scooter through there, KNOW HOW TO DO IT!! There was no sense for any of that in there.

[Shocky]

Amen!

[JamesK]

One thing that pisses me off more than unsafe divers are those with no skills going to delicate areas.

Your statement is like saying one thing I hate more the brussell sprouts is brussell sprouts. The divers who are doing such things are diving beyond their skill level so they are in fact unsafe divers.

I agree with you though.

[jj1987]

Your statement is like saying one thing I hate more the brussell sprouts is brussell sprouts. The divers who are doing such things are diving beyond their skill level so they are in fact unsafe divers.

I agree with you though.

Don't be so sure. There are places in Chips Hole where Sheck Exley WALKED out on his record setting dive there. Conservation and safety aren't always the same.

[JamesK]

Don't be so sure. There are places in Chips Hole where Sheck Exley WALKED out on his record setting dive there. Conservation and safety aren't always the same.

Ah, but safety was never brought up. It was skills and unsafe divers. Someone going in to a cave that is above their skill level is an unsafe diver. What Sheck did and someone smaking the ceiling and leaving fin and hand prints in clay banks are two completely different things.

[Kevin Carlisle]

Ah, but safety was never brought up. It was skills and unsafe divers. Someone going in to a cave that is above their skill level is an unsafe diver. What Sheck did and someone smaking the ceiling and leaving fin and hand prints in clay banks are two completely different things.

Planning the dive safe im pretty sure they do. Executing the dive while not causing damage is where they fail. They are a poor excuse of a diver in my opinion.

[DA Aquamaster]

Planning the dive safe im pretty sure they do. Executing the dive while not causing damage is where they fail. They are a poor excuse of a diver in my opinion.

Conservation should be a major factor in both planning and execution of the dive. If the diver reaches a point where the dive can no longer be done while conserving the cave (as in the area you discussed in the origanal post) then the dive should be turned. As the diver's level of skill improves, so willl the areas in the cave they can go.

The problem is that divers set goals based on gas consumption, etc and leave out the conservation issue.

Getting there does not mean ****, any bull in the china closet can do that, and that kind of accomplishment should not be considered as a measure of a good diver. Getting there (where ever "there" happens to be) cleanly should instead be the hallmark of a good diver.

[LakeCityDiver]

hand prints in clay banks

In more then one spot on this board I have heard that this is considered vandalism... Why? I understand it looks bad and may demonstrate someone who had bad buoyancy.

[DA Aquamaster]

In more then one spot on this board I have heard that this is considered vandalism... Why? I understand it looks bad and may demonstrate someone who had bad buoyancy.

We strive for perfection but the unfortunate fact is that now and then learning will occur when we fail. No one is going to call that kind of unintentional contact "vandalism" when it is something a reasonable diver could have experienced and when it was not reasonably forseeable.

However, I tend to regard 1"-2" deep hand prints in clay bottoms as "gross negligence" rather than just unintentional "bad buoyancy". It is the difference in intent, forseeability and responsibility that gives it the "vandalism" feel.

There have been a couple occasions where for one reason or another (or several that ganged up on me) I have had less than perfect buoyancy. In that case, a finger on a nearby rock was enough to stabilize the situation without doing visible damage. In another instance, I managed to put the end of the valve knob about a 1/4" into the clay on the bottom. Even though it had the saving grace of being in a training section of a cave and my mark was not noticeable among all the hand prints and fin marks, I still feel bad about it as it was truly bad form. It's the "strive for perfection" thing...

Worst case, over a silt bottom with no rock in sight to spread the load over more surface area, I could see a diver poking a finger into the bottom to prevent full contact, but the full on hand prints plastered an inch or more into the silt or clay are beyond the pale. If a diver's buoyancy is that out of control, he or she just does belong there and has the responsibility to turn the dive before they get in that situation. Sadly, I often see hand prints around duck unders that are just not that challenging. The slight duck under just past the jump to the SM tunnel in the water hole tunnel is a good example. It is not that challenging, but hand prints are common.

Obviously bouyancy control and loss of control is a matter of degree. But if a diver's buyoancy is so questionable that they are bottoming out hard enough to create hand prints, then they need to stay on the main line in training areas of the cave until they get it under control and take the personal responsibility to avoid those sensitive areas of the cave until their skills are up to the demands of the dive.

It's also a buddy issue and some self policing in teams would help, rather than createing peerr pressure for a diver to proceed into areas they cannot dive cleanly. Fr example, Ken and I took a diver/tech instructor into P1 last year whose cave diving skills were unknown. That initial dive was enough to inform us of the need to not go where we had planned as the diver with us would not be able to do it cleanly.

[kensuf]

Don't be so sure. There are places in Chips Hole where Sheck Exley WALKED out on his record setting dive there. Conservation and safety aren't always the same.

The description of "groveling" in Cavers Measureless to Man says it all.