Cow Springs Access Restrictions for Conservation, Safety, Accessibility

[SuPrBuGmAn]

... and the minority do the majority of the damage at Cow.



... and most people don't do the majority of the damage at Cow.

Right, and none of your suggestions would aleviate that... however the influx of less experienced divers(Full Cave with fewer dives post training) would likely increase damage.

Regardless, does Kathy add up your dives? Or even flip to the last page? Or even check if you have a log book?

While I appreciate what Cathy and Dive Outpost does to help gatekeep Cow, I think its one of the weaker links in the chain to enforcing those diving it are actually allowed, or keeping to where they are allowed to go. This is very possibly because the wording and ruling seems to flip-flop every 5 minutes from the CDS on perameters to dive Cow.

OK, so maybe dives at Intro shouldn't count. But why on earth shouldn't Apprentice? What about all the dives you do after Full, that you could have been done at Apprentice? Should those count?

Apprentice isn't a Full Certification, its just a introduction to a few of the more complexities required for a Full Certification. An Apprentice diver hasn't had Full Training, and as an expiring certification level, can't really rack up alot of experience AT that level.

Full Cave or Cave Diver or whatever you want to call it finishes off the initial training, dives after that are what counts.

[Greenwood_60]

Right, and none of your suggestions would aleviate that... however the influx of less experienced divers(Full Cave with fewer dives post training) would likely increase damage.

We simply don't agree on this one. While I agree the average diver would not be as skilled, the worst divers would be more skilled.

While I appreciate what Cathy and Dive Outpost does to help gatekeep Cow, I think its one of the weaker links in the chain to enforcing those diving it are actually allowed, or keeping to where they are allowed to go.

I don't agree. Those with enough respect for the rules will get the key, those who don't will walk their tanks in the back. It's not like they will turn anyone down with a current NSS-CDS membership (Are OW divers allowed? or just Cavern?). There is nothing else they can do other than to tell you without Full (or Full+100 now), you are restricted to daylight or downstream only. I can personally verify that with an Intro cert, they verified I knew where I was and was not allowed to dive. I have no problem what so ever with how DO is handling the gatekeeping.

Apprentice isn't a Full Certification, its just a introduction to a few of the more complexities required for a Full Certification. An Apprentice diver hasn't had Full Training, and as an expiring certification level, can't really rack up alot of experience AT that level.

You're right, Apprentice isn't Full... but Full isn't full. You can't DPV dive, trimix dive, or rebreather dive, without additional training. It's all semantics. Do you have to use everything you learn in all of your cave training on every dive to gain experience?

[SuPrBuGmAn]

You're right, Apprentice isn't Full... but Full isn't full. You can't DPV dive, trimix dive, or rebreather dive, without additional training. It's all semantics. Do you have to use everything you learn in all of your cave training on every dive to gain experience?

Sure, you can DPV without additional formal training. I don't think I'd be going out on a limb at all saying that 90% DPVing didn't go through a formal class. The way I understand it, is the formal class was provided for those that don't have a mentor possibility at their disposal, and likely to kiss the folks at Ginnie's asses. They're the only ones who give a crap about the certification, afterall.

Trimix and Rebreathers(and DPVs in a lesser sense)? They aren't cave specific, nor would they have any bearing on this little back-n-forth.

[TONY CHANEY]

lowering the standards for diving what most consider a pristine cave system...

And the discussion is about raising the standards not lowering them. The last damage to the clay banks were done by divers with more-than-likely well over a 100 dives.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

And the discussion is about raising the standards not lowering them. The last damage to the clay banks were done by divers with more-than-likely well over a 100 dives.

OK, but I haven't seen any alternatives being offered up in this thread that raises the bar?

[TONY CHANEY]

That's very true. But here is where I am confused. "Raise the bar." Why the sudden need to change things? I have dove this system several times and find it not very hard to do. Was there a death, more damage, etc.? I voted to have a least one diver on the team who has dove the system before. OBTW, how are we (I am a member) going to control who goes upstream and who goes downstream?

[Greenwood_60]

Sure, you can DPV without additional formal training. I don't think I'd be going out on a limb at all saying that 90% DPVing didn't go through a formal class. The way I understand it, is the formal class was provided for those that don't have a mentor possibility at their disposal, and likely to kiss the folks at Ginnie's asses. They're the only ones who give a crap about the certification, afterall.

You are confusing training and certification. It's OK, my former LDS use to confuse qualified and certified all the time.

Trimix and Rebreathers(and DPVs in a lesser sense)? They aren't cave specific, nor would they have any bearing on this little back-n-forth.

Spools and reels too then, right? While we are at it, 3rds, deco, frog kicks, doubles, valve shutdowns... right?

And the discussion is about raising the standards not lowering them.

Says who? The problem was most (?) people though it was simply a post-Full requirement, and when Full+100 came to light, this poll was posted. As far as I am concerned, Full+100 would be raising the bar. But does the bar need to be raised?

The last damage to the clay banks were done by divers with more-than-likely well over a 100 dives.

Didn't the catch one of the guys from brazil or something?

[SuPrBuGmAn]

You are confusing training and certification. It's OK, my former LDS use to confuse qualified and certified all the time.

If you want to play that game, you are pushing for neither certified or qualified.

Spools and reels too then, right? While we are at it, 3rds, deco, frog kicks, doubles, valve shutdowns... right?

You're reaching pretty far out there at what point exactly? BTW, most of the stuff you just listed was developed from cave diving.

[Greenwood_60]

If you want to play that game, you are pushing for neither certified or qualified.

So a full cave diver with 100 hours in the cave is which? Not certified to dive cow or not qualified to dive cow? What is it about Cow that a makes it so difficult for a trained diver who gives a **** to not mess up? I still do think they should have someone familiar with the system in their group.

[PfcAJ]

I would at least say that an intro diver with or without 100 hours is not qualified, that's for sure.