Cow Springs Access Restrictions for Conservation, Safety, Accessibility

[JamesK]

If you're not logging your dives then how would you plan on proving previous cow experience?

I assume you are speaking to me. If you notice, some of my Cow dives are logged. Also, logs to me don't prove anything. Anybody could fake a log.

[Red Hat Jef]

Ok I see. I was trying to figure out the plan for folks who don't log their dives. sounds like the direction this thread is going is Abe Davis and at least one logged dive at cow.

I agree that logs can be faked. Maybe that's a harder thing to do with a cave diver though. My logs generally include a few tidbits so I can remember the dive later. Seems like the person inspecting the logs could ask some general knowledge questions about the dive to verify the logs.

I seem to recall that diving the Doria at one point required scrutiny of a dive log. Proof of dives in similar depths and conditions and gas mixes/configurations. I think in extreme cases the buddy in the logbook was called for verification.

If a person only has a few dives logged and/or the logbook looks questionable (potentially faked as you suggest could occur) then what would you suggest? Deny access to cow?

[JamesK]

I really don't know how you would do it. However, I honestly trust the folks at the NSS-CDS to make a good call on faked logs. I hope it would not be , just turn in 100 dive logs and without question, it's yours. I just never worried about having an Abe Davis award, so I quit logging dives. However, I have been Full Cave for over 7 years now, I am pretty sure I have the required dives! LOL.

I wish I had a suggestion of some sorts, but I can't think of any at the moment.

I guess I am going to have to start logging my dives! Time to grab my computers and log what I did today!

[Unregistered User]

I first dove Cow back in summer 1995, before there were any requirements of any sort. I was only cavern certified at the time, though I had done about 30 cave dives in Little River with some intro and full-cave certified divers. They took me to Cow's downstream side about a dozen times before they even told me about the upstream entrance. Once they were convinced I could handle it I probably dove it about a dozen times before I earned my intro certification. Then about another 60 or so dives upstream before I became full-cave certified. I've probably been there over 150 times (I don't keep dive logs) since. I've become quite inured to admonishment from 'purist' (read, sanctimonious) cave divers for my diving history, so let the sparks fly.

My vote is for:
3. At least one member of the dive team having prior experience in upstream Cow Spring.

Since the property is gated and (ostensibly) off-limits to non-members, I suspect that will keep many divers (like me in the past) from diving it.

I never applied for the Abe Davis award because it seemed a superfluous distinction to me. I don't believe in arbitrarily credentialing divers when a dive log can be so easily faked. I may have to rethink this position now, since I do not necessarily qualify for diving this site now (though I am an NSS & NSS-CDS member). I'll guess I'll find out if I'm good enough when I [attempt to] solo dive there tomorrow.

[DA Aquamaster]

Logs can be faked, but for the most part, most of the dives will be in caves familiar to the instructor reviewing the log and they can probably spot suspicious entries where the entry is not consistent with a dive in that particular, cave, passage, etc.

Not keeping a log because they can be faked, or avoiding a logged dive requirement because a log can be faked is pretty pointless as in general the practice is sound and most divers will make ball park accurate log entries.

[JamesK]

Not keeping a log because they can be faked, or avoiding a logged dive requirement because a log can be faked is pretty pointless as in general the practice is sound and most divers will make ball park accurate log entries.

I don't keep a log because of the fact that I got lazy and never really cared about numbers, not because they can be faked. The only thing I keep is a copies of the maps of the caves I dive with highlighted areas that I have been in. I guess I am going to have to start logging my dives now. No big deal and I don't think a rule should be changed simply because I do not log dives. I am not asking for special treatment. I am simply saying that proof of past dives in that system should suffice.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Logs can be faked, but for the most part, most of the dives will be in caves familiar to the instructor reviewing the log and they can probably spot suspicious entries where the entry is not consistent with a dive in that particular, cave, passage, etc.

I find that TOTALLY off the mark in my own experience.

[FW]

I find that TOTALLY off the mark in my own experience.

Because you don't dive in "training" caves

[huxley]

I remember discussing the Abe Davis or similar in our group of divers and we came all to the same conclusion, that it would be better to log the time under water and give out an abe davis on 100hr and not the amount of dives. In general I think it's like collecting PADI specialties. Some people don't care about them at all and still do the dives or have the knowledge and some collect and do one after the other. It still does not say they dive better than the ones that don't collect. You can make 100 or more dives after full cave in the wreck or similar environment and it does not count towards AD. You can make 1 cave dive where you surface or you can make the same dive just log several as long as they full fill the current regulations of dive time and surface time.
Example I did a dive at Kitty down to the river and back up and playing around in a spring run, total dive time little over 150 min and log it as 1 dive. You could make 4 or 5 or whatever out of this one, still the same dive and still the same knowledge/ training gained. To me the Abe Davis does not tell me anything about someone's skills other than he survived 100 dived but not how and when. A diver with 100 dives in 10 years and not dive for a couple years might be worse than a diver with less in a shorter period and is actively diving caves.

I don't want to discuss or start a discussion about the pros or cons of Abe Davis or hurt anyone that has this award (congrats to everyone this is a great achievement), but just don't see the point that this for sure will reduce the impact on Cow. as mentioned in an earlier post the amount of divers a day, or a closure for certain times of the year to recover would be a way to do a better job of prevent damage or give it time to recover. I think those should be in your vote as well as they are options to consider if that is the intention of changing the rules.

There is still the option of leaving it the way it was, why make things more complicated if it's not required. Everyone bitches about the government and how we should regulate less, unless there is really a need for it. If I remember reading in the December UWS that Hart springs got changed from abe davis to full cave as requirement + the necessary guide there.

[Greenwood_60]

How about 100 logged hours in a cave, at the appropriate level, since intro, excluding time spend on deco and in certifications. It encourages (or at lease doesn't discourage) taking plenty of time at each level. Also doesn't give extra credit for super short dives. I have dives logged as two where we went down the Olsen line to 6ths, surfaced, talked about it, then did a dive down the Peanut line to 6ths. One of my computers even logged it all as one dive, the other broke it up in to two. Each was about 30 minutes. I have 120ish dives in the cavern or cave (50/50 roughly), and not a single one counts towards my "experience" as far as diving cow is concerned.

FWIW, I think the requirement for cave certs should include a minimum total dive time on the cert dives.