Cow Springs Access Restrictions for Conservation, Safety, Accessibility

[fno]

Hello all, it seems that the same points being tossed about here r.e. Abe Davis, mentoring, guided diving were pretty much the same that our commiteee wrestled with. Essentially, a newly minted full cave diver should have the skill set to dive Cow with out getting in trouble or damaging the cave. As should a diver with 100 cave dives under their weight belt. Sadly, I think that is not always the case for a variety of reasons. This is both from direct observation and comments from others. The case can also be made for having one experienced Cow diver in a group. But, how do you justify that if the "experienced" diver has only 20 or so dives out of full cave and two or three of them are at Cow. I have given some thought to guides at Cow, but not for long and I do not see it as necessary. I personally feel that anybody, full cave, Abe Davis (100+ dives), should be making their first(and maybe 2nd) dive at Cow with someone that has been there a number of times before. That was how I was introduced to the site, actually for a few of my early dives there. There is a lot to be said for "experienced" cave divers passing some of that "local knowledge" on to those that are new to cave diving or live far away and don't get as much time in caves. I can recall some of the "experience" I obtained through observation, discussion, and of course the tricks and practical jokes at my expense that often had the intended purpose of improving my skills underwater. Now that I too have some "experience" I make efforts as a guide and weekend diver to seek out other divers that haven't been to that site or only get down to FL twice a year and do a dive or two with them. If you happen to find yourself tied to the log in the Ear with cave line it could be one of my "mentors" . If you find yourself tied to the log with "your" cave line, you'll know it was me......Now, where did I put that damn knife!!!!!!

[BabyDuck]

well, i'll be the dissenting voice. i think cow is lovely, i'm glad access is restricted a bit by it being a 'members only' cave, but i don't think it is difficult. i don't agree that an abe should be a pre-req.

[Bob Cree]

fno (Frank), your point about mentorship is well taken. Considering the fact that you spent a great deal of time mentoring me, I gave this a fair amout of thought and it hit me this morning that the NSS-CDS could do a real service to cave diving, safety and conservation by providing a leadership role in encouraging mentorship while at the same time using that process to perhaps allow access to NSS-CDS properties by divers with properly evaluated skill sets - case in point Upstream Cow. Here is a slant on how this might work.

The NSS-CDS has a rather large and well defined body of divers that are qualified (granted to varied degrees) to mentor newer divers, those divers who have received the Abe Davis award. The NSS-CDS also has an even larger body of divers that would likely love to receive mentorship that pushes their limits in a controlled way, and expands their horizons into more and more complex systems and situations.

Case in point, and I will never forget this - before Frank ever took me into a situation that could have seriously reduced visibility in a not so good location, I remember him taking me on a Hill 400/Cross over/RollerCoaster and back to Gold line dive - I was leading, staying high in the cave, etc...and unexpectedly Frank literally blows past me with a full flutter kick about 1 inch off the bottom in the Cross-over (a place I had been several times, so exits both direction HE knew I knew). I remember shooting the finger at him and laughing as I automatically found myself on the line and swam in zero vis for a short distance to find Frank turned 180 with his light aimed straight down the line...it was a non-event, but one that provided a great deal of confidence...and after that, I got to see some pretty cool stuff!

One thing Frank has always told me is that I should take knowledge gained and pass it on. I have taken this seriously and tried to do this in many cases, but it is somewhat akward to do a pick up dive with the intent of passing it on...you essentially are an unknown and they are doing you a favor by letting you tag along, so it loses its purpose. But occasionally, you can chat and hook up several more times, and it starts to work. But it is not all that easy to get the process going.

What if the NSS-CDS were to automatically designate all Abe Davis divers as mentors and provide a way for less experienced members to log onto the NSS-CDS web site and hook up with them with the intent to gain mentorship? A cross contact sign-up list of sorts if you will. Hey, I will be down from this to that date - looking for mentorship, and mentors can sign on for it...or direct contact list, or both...write about it in the UWS, maybe some perks for participants. - you get the idea.

Now here is where there can be a carrot pertinent to this thread...if you meet all other qualifications and your mentor validates you as having the skill set to dive an NSS-CDS site but you don't have your 100 post full cave dives yet, that mentor can submit a request for waiver of the 100 post full cave dive requirement and allow you to dive the site together with THAT particular mentor - hold them responsible for their recommendation.

This would provide for building a mentorship program that allows those of us who have our Abe Davis to "pass it on" to others in membership who have not, as well as provide a path for those "others" to see the spectacular cave systems owned by the NSS-CDS when they are ready to do so, plus raise awareness for conservation and minimize damage to these sites. Becomes win-win and something to be aspired to.

[Horton]

I think full cave and current CDS membership should be all that is required to dive Cow.

[DA Aquamaster]

Bob, I like the idea to the extent that it encourages mentoring and having a diver who is experienced in the system take a new to the system diver there for their first dive in the system.

That's along the lines of what is done at Friedman's Sink at Manatee and the same policy would work well at Cow.

But I'd like to see that in addition to the NSS-CDS member ship and Abe Davis (or equivalent) requirements.

[Walter Pickel]

OK, I'll bite. How does Cathy, or the current tank monkey at DO, determine you've got 100 cave dives? Do they sit down with your cave book and add up your dives?

I remember what I went thru getting that 100-dive added up and certified for NACD (Wakulla Award) but not everybody is going to go that route. Also, the 100-dive requirement is in place at Bonnet, too, and enforced by the Park Service, but the area between the Z-Bend & the Debtor's Payment has been trashed, so what's the answer?

IMO, the 100-dive requirement is a good standard, but impractical to regulate or enforce.

Pretty easy actually, since you have to be a member of the CDS to dive Cow and the Abe Davis doesn't cost a thing. THe CDS will send you a little silver sticker the says Abe Davis Award that you can put on your cave card. I would actually like the NSS to publish the cave diving awards in the membership manual; that would make things wee bit easier.

Frank, thanks for doing a very thankless job!

[Kelly Jessop]

I would actually like the NSS to publish the cave diving awards in the membership manual; that would make things wee bit easier.

I agree,and have been asking for this for years. The NSS does a great job of listing Lew Bicking etc,and it would be great to get all the CDS award categories in this manual

[JCDdiver]

well, i'll be the dissenting voice. i think cow is lovely, i'm glad access is restricted a bit by it being a 'members only' cave, but i don't think it is difficult. i don't agree that an abe should be a pre-req.

I couldn't agree more.

[JamesK]

I personally think a combination of these choices would be good. Abe Davis does not ensure that a diver will be a concerned diver, or even understand the in's and out's of Cow. Also, not everyone logs dives. I stopped logging dives in 2004. I do not show 100 post full dives, yet I easily have them. I also have dove Cow quite a few times, some of which are logged. I feel that either a Abe Davis, or prior Cow experience should be a requirement. I also feel that at least one in the team should have prior experience.

I have not been a CDS member for quite a few years though. I plan on rejoining when I get back to the states though.

[Red Hat Jef]

If you're not logging your dives then how would you plan on proving previous cow experience?