Cow Springs Access Restrictions for Conservation, Safety, Accessibility

[DA Aquamaster]

Matt is on the money. Just ask the Susan B Koman foundation what happens when you ignore or underestimate the power of the internet in any community.

NSS-CDS may only have 4 meetings per year with no means for remote access, but they'd be well served in the big picture to develop that capability. The only valid argument for not doing it in this day in age tends to be more closely related to a desire to maintain the status quo than to any technology challenges. Or perhaps it just makes it that much harder for non local zip code and international members to run for and be elected to BOD positions.

Personally, I think not imposing a "must dive upstream Cow the first time with someone with previous upstream Cow experience" and an Abe Davis requirement is a bit short sighted. Cow is seeing more traffic and more damage, and upping the experience level certainly couldn't hurt.

I don't understand the liability issue at all - someone is going to have to explain to me why imposing a greater experience level increases liability.

I have to say, my NSS-CDS membership is due for renewal and the meeting issues and BOD decision on Cow does give me pause on whether I want to continue to support the NSS-CDS with my annual dues.

[fno]

OK, gang. I have been offline for a bit and lazy with the Management Plan and notifications. The real reason that the policy for Cow was changed at the meeting is that it is not in agreement with the activities taking place for the last two or three years since the policy was changed by me and my commitee to require the Abe Davis. Bear in mind that I am the lazy, incompetent, and careless BoD member that let all this happen for a long time. Since Cathy has been aware of the rule change, I instructed her to agnore the Abe Davis requirement till the Board could sort out "my" mistake. Whether or not the BoD votes again at a later time to require additional experience, I can not answer that. Also note that the poll I initiated was not an official NSS-CDS vote, inquiry, investigation. It was me wanting to know which way the wind blows. As a BoD member, I (we) are often accused of making policy without consulting the membership. I prefer not to do that and the poll here was the most expedient way to get a feel for what to do. Is it accurate, reflect only CDS members opinions, not really..... But it is a means to gauge the direction of the wind, so to speak. I, personally would like to see an Abe Davis requirement to dive at Cow. It has seen way too much damage since the NSS-CDs bought the place. However, I am only one voice of seven on the BoD. As Cheryl stated very well, if you want the Board to consider your opinion a phone call or an email is the best way to make that happen. I do come to CDF often, but normally not to discuss the CDS....

Best Regards to All, Frank Ohidy, Program Director, NSS-CDS.

[CaveMD]

I, personally would like to see an Abe Davis requirement to dive at Cow. It has seen way too much damage since the NSS-CDs bought the place.

As a cds member, I agree. From p1800' to the Cow at EOL look beat to hell and there are multiple glory markers along it. These kind of people don't need to be diving it. Abe req wont keep them all out and will keep out a lot that aren't like that but hopefully more good than bad will occur by the change.

[divindoc]

I am amazed about all the talk about "faking" log books. Really? You're only fooling yourself. IMO a person without intregrity isn't worth a damn.

Ps - Keep the requirements as they are (or were); hopefully that will ensure a basic level of compentency to protect the system.

[mdax]

I'd thought about making a site to track cave damage...but then realized it'd just make me depressed, provide ammo for cave diving haters and squash my enjoyment. Still would be interesting to track over time and a good resource to log acts of vandalism.

[MORGAN]

I don't understand the liability issue at all - someone is going to have to explain to me why imposing a greater experience level increases liability.

Me, too.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

So does that mean that the other '100 cave dive' sites will be open to all cave divers due to liability? I'm not following the logic (I'm sure there is some logic...)

This is a legitimate question, given the new importance of percieved(?) reduction of liability within the CDS.

[skip]

I am not a board member, but I suspect the liability issue is something along the lines that if you say only X experience level can dive there and somehow a person without that level of experience does get in, then the liability insurance is not valid should something happen. That is, the insurance covers ONLY the required experience level. The CDS would be at fault for allowing lower experience divers into the system, not the insurance company, and thus the CDS would be solely liable. The CDS could always argue that the lower experience diver should not have been in there, they could argue that they've taken all reasonable actions to prevent access to those divers, etc., but that takes a lawyer, courts, etc., and the CDS would be stuck with the bill for all that and may or may not win. Better to have insurance for all.

So you get insurance to cover liability on anyone anytime who's in there and be much safer in the event of a law-suit than insurance that covers only in the event of X experience level. Twisted logic, but that's why they call it insurance. If I'm correct about this, then I do not understand why the insurance would necessarily be tied to access rules. then again, I don't understand insurance in general.

I would be in favor of limiting the number of divers per year, or per month or whatever, regardless of experience level, which I also think should require abe davis, and members of NSS/CDS only, no friends of members, all divers must be members. It's our cave, paid for with our money, and our money is paying for the insurance too. You want to dive it, get the training and experience, and become a member. Keep it in the family and you'll see conservation. By the way, I'd like to see deer-cams installed too, motion-detection picture taking, so we know who's there when.

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[Line Squirrel]

So then take it all the way to the "obviously ridiculous" level just to play devil’s advocate...why restrict access to full cave, why not O/W and let each individual decide if their skill set is adequate?

[PfcAJ]

Well then you might as well not have any acces restrictions at all, if you're going with that line of thinking.