full cave in 2 weeks

[Ann]

My friend and I want to follow a full cave course in 2 weeks (TDI). We found some instructors who give this course, and all say it's not too fast if you are an experienced diver. We realise we still are almost beginner after that course, but you only learn diving if you want to go diving. We want to get certified to dive in the future everywhere we want, sometimes with a guide, but sometimes by ourselves too. First only in no deep caves (my friend hasn't followed any trimixcourse, officielly he is only AOW certified.)
Anyone has done such a course in a holiday? And was it nice? After that course did you dive again in caves? For us, caves are abroad and min. 600 km away from our home, but we want to start with one of them after following this course (cave of max. 24 m. depth). We normally have wrecks in our backyard

[Jim Wyatt]

My friend and I want to follow a full cave course in 2 weeks

Most cave instructors and cave divers discourage the zero-to-hero option. However when people insist I have them read the following:
http://cavediveflorida.com/Cavern-to-Cave2.htm

[gschaut]

What he said.

I'm going to (hopefully) finish up my full cave in April. My training has been spread out over 18 months, and even that feels a bit rushed. After every phase of cave training, I am going back home to practice new skills, make equipment adjustments and get everything perfect. In preparation for the next phase of training.

And even after full cave the learning continues. Full cave certification is just the end of the beginning of your training.

[JamesK]

Excellent work Jim! If that doesn't show you are serious about it, nothing will.

It took me a year of diving almost every weekend while I went from Intro to Full Cave. I could have done it much quicker I am sure, However I wanted to make sure I had everything as good as I could possibly do before I moved on to the next level. To me this is not something that should be taken lightly. This is not the new OW diver to AOW diver in 10 dives deal. This is serious business. I have been cave diving for 10 years now and still think of myself as a newb/novice.

[JahJahwarrior]

Why do it all in one two week vacation? There's no benefit to faster training except the higher chance of getting in trouble. The problem is compounded by plenty of cave instructors who don't do a good job.

Why not do this: come for a week, do a cavern and intro course. If you pass cavern, but fail intro, you still get a card, and you have things to work on. That will take a minimum of 4 days, spend the last two days (assuming you fly out and need one day between last day and flight) diving to your certification limits and practicing your newly learned skills. The last day, go for a nature hike around Peacock Springs State Park, snorkeling at Crystal River, or doing a glass bottom boat tour at Silver River. Visit all the big dive shops, and get maps of the area, to prepare yourself for next year when you come back for Apprentice.

Spend your second week of vacation off diving somewhere. Go wreck diving, or even cave diving. Example: get cavern+intro in North Florida, then take a cave diving vacation in Mexico. This gives you more practice.

Next year, when you have more two more weeks of vacation, come back and try to do apprentice. You'll be much more comfortable and learn much more. You'll focus on the finesse instead of the major things, because you'll have some bigger kinks trained out of you by then.

[LakeCityDiver]

I assure it is a lot to digest all at once once they start running drills such as "lost line", " cut line", "lights out", "Blind touch contact" and if your like me "getting stuck and getting out" with no mask. In High flow systems you need to have great buoyancy among many other skills. The cave systems have been there for thousands of years and they are not going anywhere. Take your time.

[a64pilot]

I'm still in training and considered the 0 to hero thing, the argument for it, was you got trained all the way the correct way without learning any bad habits in between classes. From other courses I've gone through, like Instrument flying, there are similar "crash" courses and while being legal, the level of pilot just isn't as good, you need real world practice and experience in between classes. I decided the benefits just didn't outweigh the risks

[DA Aquamaster]

I took cavern and intro together and at the time I had 20 years of diving averaging about 130 dives per year with 10 years of it doing deep technical and wreck dives. With that background and excellent buoyancy and fin technique, the cavern and intro classes were not overly challenging.

At the end of the Intro class my instructor stated I was ready for full cave, however I still waited and dive at the Intro level for a bit more than a year. It's a lot to learn and diving experience aside, cave diving brings new skills that need to be incorporated and you need to gain experience over time in progressively more challenging situations. Going straight to full cave creates way too much potential to forge right into complex navigation, long decompression and miss some of the finer points as well as the confidence and wisdom that comes from real world experience.

As I see it, the definition of "experienced" is an ever moving target and I would not regard the average OW or AOW as very experienced at all when it comes to cave diving regardless of OW experience, DM or instructor status. Similarly, I didn't and still don't regard technical wreck diving as adequate experience to make cavern to full cave in 2 weeks a good idea.

Even a couple years post full cave with a hundred and some odd full cave dives including deep trimix cave dives, and small silty passage side mount dives, I don't consider myself to be all that experienced but I still value the year or so spent at the intro level and I am glad I passed on the zero to hero option.

YMMV.

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As an aside and a comment on quick and dirty instrument training courses. I agree. I took mine the slow, old fashioned way with no simulator time and about half of the air work in actual instrument weather conditions.

I appreciated that on the flight back from my instrument check ride when the weather closed to near minimums and I encountered moderate un-forecast icing on approach. I would not have wanted to be forced to fly an approach to minimums with gusty crosswinds and an inch of ice on the wings with only a "crash" course in instrument flying and little or no real world instrument flight experience.

And with more real world experience, I would have just gotten a room and waited until morning before flying home, since having a license or c-card in your pocket won't save your ass when conditions exceed the limits of your ability and experience.

The same potential exists to unexpectedly get in way over your head cave diving after a zero to hero course. If you are dumb enough to do that, at least spend 50-100 dives on the mainline to intro limits before you decide you are actually ready to make full cave dives.

[JamesK]

I'm still in training and considered the 0 to hero thing, the argument for it, was you got trained all the way the correct way without learning any bad habits in between classes. From other courses I've gone through, like Instrument flying, there are similar "crash" courses and while being legal, the level of pilot just isn't as good, you need real world practice and experience in between classes. I decided the benefits just didn't outweigh the risks

Their are ways to combat the bad habits. Some instructors do not mind past students diving with new classes they are putting through. Also some folks might come by themselves and need a buddy to take a class with. Let your instructor know that you would be willing to help them out when they need it and be a buddy for the lone diver during their class. It puts you through all the skills and drills again. I did this quite a few times and it helped tremendously.

[saxplayer1004]

I did the 0-hero full course. I had a lot of experience in sidemount and doubles, done a fair amount of deco so managing bottles was a non issue, and was trained properly from the start. *hands tied to our D-rings, had rocks dropped on our heads if we were flutter kicking type of thing*. I only had to learn cave specific techniques. Pull-and-glide etc etc. No line work was new to me, and no diving skills were new to me. I was tired at the end of it, but I was wet for most of it *last 3 days were dry when we were doing multiple stage bottles for technical cave. The two guys I took it with didn't pass and stayed at apprentice level despite already coming in at intro level.

I'm part of the exception though and while I am full cave certified and allowed to carry stages and what not, I will only do one or two long dives while I'm in cave country and the rest are without excessive deco and no stages. I don't have enough dives in the caves to warrant going wicked far back because I haven't seen all that there is to see in the short parts. Only problem I had with the course was remembering what the limits for cavern intro and apprentice were because the first dive in the cave was in orange grove to pothole, so that was "cavern", so remembering the limits I wasn't following was the only problem. I plan the dive to thirds, but will stop at whatever penetration limit I set, and will make 1 or 2 nav decisions, but thirds for me is on steel 72's and HP100's, so that's significantly less than thirds of HP130's, and usually won't rack up much if any deco. I think that's technically apprentice level diving? I dunno, I dive to what I feel comfortable doing and as of right now that isn't doing long staged dives every day.

I don't have an AOW card either, only a nitrox diver, rescue diver, and full cave, so the cards really don't mean anything. It's about experience and previous training. If you can't pass all the things that link said *which is brilliant btw*. Our training schedule was a bit different with 3 dives done on the first day. Open water running line in orange grove, then 2 short runs from orange grove to pothole, but again the other buddies were already intro certified and I came in prepared. By the sound of it, you may just want to get cavern and intro certified which will allow you to do a fair amount of cave diving and if it's your thing come back and finish. The class is a huge investment and if you're not diving caves regularly, the limitations of intro aren't really all that bad. I don't buy into the singles with H-valve nonsense though, if you're going to dive at the intro level, get the temporary doubles pass or whatever it is on the card *which I also think is a load of bollocks, if the person isn't responsible enough to limit themselves to 6th's they have no business being in a cave* and get used to diving in doubles. While it's really not all that different, getting used to the extra weight behind your head and what not is good to have, and they're much more comfortable to dive in the water from a balance standpoint.