Sad but true

[CaveBuddy95]

+1 bravo Mauro

[phillip1]

OOppps it was actually translated from the Italian "se Dio vuole" same thing, thanks Phillip! Anyway that's my point, yes respect, we don't need to be all friends, that worked only in the '70 (and they used some help I heard, hehe), but we can still do what is best for everybody: avoid to behave like kids!

21st it is man!!

I agree you don't have to be friends with everyone but if you show respect to everyone then stuff like this would not happen in the first place.
I also agree that what is in the past is most of the time water under the bridge (now if you were to translate that to Spanish would would get some really funny looks) and that holding a grudge is a waste of time and hinders progress.

[JoeyP]

My guess is V#1, whomever he may be, is not mentally responsible for his actions because anyone who would tamper with the navigational system in an underwater cave (read life support system) to promote his business, agenda or what ever is clearly a few cards short of a full deck. People like that can't be reasoned with because for whatever reason, their cognitive abilities have been diminished to the extent that they are incapable of reasoning beyond their own immediate self interest / needs, be they real or imagined.

Sadly, in Mx. there is little one can do other than take the law into ones own hands and administer "street justice" which may or may not be as abhorrent a transgression as tampering with lines / line arrows. The only things I know for sure is that the human condition responds to pleasure and pain and that Good Lord helps those who help themselves. Wringing ones hands and whining is far less effective than an axe handle and a ski mask. YMMV.....

[apitkin]

My guess is V#1, whomever he may be, is not mentally responsible for his actions because anyone who would tamper with the navigational system in an underwater cave (read life support system) to promote his business, agenda or what ever is clearly a few cards short of a full deck. People like that can't be reasoned with because for whatever reason, their cognitive abilities have been diminished to the extent that they are incapable of reasoning beyond their own immediate self interest / needs, be they real or imagined.

Sadly, in Mx. there is little one can do other than take the law into ones own hands and administer "street justice" which may or may not be as abhorrent a transgression as tampering with lines / line arrows. The only things I know for sure is that the human condition responds to pleasure and pain and that Good Lord helps those who help themselves. Wringing ones hands and whining is far less effective than an axe handle and a ski mask. YMMV.....

Seriously? You're advocating a violent response to someone rearranging a few line arrows? That someone being a cave diver who has a great deal more experience than you?

Mexico has always had this kind of silliness. If it's not line arrows it's something else. Any competent cave diver should be able to deal with misplaced or even totally incorrect line arrows. If not they shouldn't be diving.

I'm not condoning Steve's actions. I expect he's pulled out some of my line arrows. But please let's maintain a sense of perspective.

Andy

[JoeyP]

First off, I don't know who is responsible. Maybe you do and can say it is Steve. I cannot because any information I have is 2nd or 3rd hand.

I've heard tales of lines and arrows being changed (moved) while people were in the cave. This is what I was referring to. If this is true I see it as a wreckless behavior which potentially endangers peoples lives. I for one would not very happy about it and quite prone to a violent response were I the victim of such idiocy. I'd imagine anyone would react that way.

That said, no, I am not talking about a violent response to the childishness of changing arrows for pink ones. That is no more than silliness.

Seriously? You're advocating a violent response to someone rearranging a few line arrows? That someone being a cave diver who has a great deal more experience than you?

Mexico has always had this kind of silliness. If it's not line arrows it's something else. Any competent cave diver should be able to deal with misplaced or even totally incorrect line arrows. If not they shouldn't be diving.

I'm not condoning Steve's actions. I expect he's pulled out some of my line arrows. But please let's maintain a sense of perspective.

Andy

[lamont]

Like I said, even if Gerrard is not doing any of the really vicious things that people accuse him of, he's not getting any support in his crusade. Even the people nominally his friends back away from defending what he's doing and which he'd be more reasonable. And he's amassing a large anti-fan club of people who believe all the vicious stuff, and talk about "street justice" on the internet every time this topic comes up. 99% of it is all talk on the internet, but the potential is there for worse (and the 'its mexico so there's no recourse other than street justice" meme isn't working in his favor). Steve needs to simply back away and stop replacing line arrows and markers in cave, he has completely blown it politically.

And waiting for "others" to come forwards publicly is a bit useless. Steve is his own worst enemy politically, so anyone else in this situation has little to lose by doing nothing and watching him self destruct. If they don't act it does give a shred of credibility that Steve can't work with them, so he can justify continuing to make changes, but he'll just be digging a deeper hole.

[PatrickWidmann]

WAAAOOOOOWWWW I didn't visit since some weeks was super busy with work and have missed all of that...

Anyway some updates:

1) I have never ever been contacted again from any agency (and dema is over since quiet some time) GUE, NSSCDS sent some emails though at the beginning so credit for that

2) We did manage to collect some money and are buying arrows at the moment specially made for our needs in Poland. The arrows are pretty big to stand out from "normal" personal arrows and will come in white for dark caves and colored bright for white caves. The will also feature the name of the passage/line and some of them with distance on it as well.

3) The beginning of the new year should see a better marked cave landscape in Q.Roo, well the mainlines in the popular caves at least.

cheers
P