Sad but true

[phillip1]

Care to enlighten everyone on what standards are being violated for the agencies to act on?

I'm not taking sides here. I don't know enough about the situation to do that. But I do know the standards pretty well and what I have read about the situation standards are not being violated. It's not really appropriate to state the agencies are lazy when there's nothing that can be done. Unless you know something no one else knows.

What I am saying is that vandal#1 is pretty much out of control in Mexico systematically replacing line arrows in all caves with no regards whatsoever for any etiquette and more importantly safety, this individual will enter a cave and for whatever reason suddenly decide to change all the line arrows adding his own and taking away ones that are not wherever he pleases. this is not only goes against every established cave diving etiquette it is also potentially dangerous for guides and divers since directional information is being systematically being changed with no warning of any kind.
This is not a case of a "line war" were a rival group would vandalize each other's arrow's this is an individual who has some kind mental issues and is single hadeldly creating a potentially unsafe situation for no apparent reason.

Now it is my understanding that this individual is a long standing active instructor of a respected cave training agency and that this behavior has been repeatedly communicated to this agency and that so far they have done absolutely nothing.


The analogy is kind of like as if a police officer would systematically act in an unsafe and incredibly disrespectful way and that this behavior/actions was/were repeatedly communicated to the police department by the community and that nothing gets done about it.

Maybe no actual standards per say are being violated but I bet the agency would terminate the status of an instructor who would be drunk and bar fighting every night if they were repeatedly warned about him/her.
We are talking about behavior that is potentially creating an unsafe situation and is definitely extremely disrespectful to pretty much the entire established Mexico cave diving community and they're clients.

IMO training agencies ARE responsible for all they're instructors and that when an instructor is out of control and is creating an unsafe situation such as in this case they should act, unfortunately as is the case most of the time if there is no legal threat to training agencies they do not care and turn a blind eye, which is why a public approach actually works best since a taring agencies can be made to look bad and that may "motivate" them to actually act and try and resolve the issue.

What I am saying is that if the training agency in question would threaten to terminate vandal #1 status if he continues this behavior then maybe vandal#1 would stop overnight.

[PatrickWidmann]

This is a complex situation as not everything is bad...

1) Replacing small white arrows with BIG pink ones might add some safety as they are easily seen...
2) Having only big pink arrows kind of is a problem as its harder to remember, as if passing different colored arrows (red - white - blue on the way in oposit on the way out)
3) Having slightly bigger arrows might be good to tell them apart by "standard" personal arrows but as in the case of the pink arrows we have right now they bend completly out of shape due to seize and material
4) "Vandal"#1 also went in a cave I helped exploring and removed my arrows (small white) and replaced them with pink...which is ok, I was done exploring anyway and again the bigger pink arrows might be safer than the small white ones.
Allthough all the small white arrows had a certain keyname on them to help with the survey, a piece of information that could help visiting cave divers aswell...but again he might be right with seize and visibility.
But a lot of explorers that take their days off, their money and their effort to go exploring obviously feel stepped on their feet if their markers get taken and replaced and to some degree also the history of when it was explored and by whom gets lost.
Nobody here can tell me that if they would find an arrow in a cave with EXLEY written on it they wouldnt smile...BUT then of course safety outweights all personal or historical reasons.
5) But than there are also the places where no one yet dives and which are still under exploration and therefore the different code names on the arrows are crutial for the team to navigate and tie the lines into the survey data and they are also replaced and that is not done for safety but purely to screw with people and cause a reaction.
I have the same problem with my neighbours, they are in pension and come down here to pass the canadian winter and so they sit every day all day on their terace and are bored like hell, so they always fight these mini wars with everybody else. They were complaining to the building administration that my Pyjamas (dry suit undergarment and thermal underwear) are hanging on my terace every day...I just smile because I know they are bored and need desperately smth going on in their lifes...a mission so to speak.

The only thing I wanna high light is that this is a complex situation and there is no side nor person that is 100% wrong. Everybody has some good points and some not so good ones and there is a lot of ego and emotion involved. That is why I think we should stop focusing our energy on the negative but instead on the positive. We found a lot of divers that wanna change things, we found people that will help produce good quality bigger high viz arrows in different colors and people that pay for them so we are looking to a good future with easier and safer navigation in the Riviera Maya.

[phillip1]

IMHO anyone who replaces arrows with they're own just because they feel like it and without the permission of the original explorers and not because of any safety concerns but just to put they're arrows, is disrespectful and deserves a serious reprimand.
No matter what anyone one says my opinion is that original line arrows should NEVER be touched unless;

#1 the original explorers were such bad divers that the original arrow placement was extremely terrible and confusing, in which case the original arrows should be MOVED to a safer/less confusing location and not REMOVED.

#2 original arrows are damaged and really really need to be replaced

#3 original line is damaged and needs to be replaced, well repair the line and put original arrows back!!

To me original explorers spend they're time and effort to explore and map cave systems if you did not partake in that exploration then your arrow DO NOT BELONG THERE!!! period.

Original arrows are part of the cave's history and should remain in place as long as possible, I would really love to dive a cave and come upon a Sheck Exley line arrow, but if behavior such as that displayed by vandal#1 is deemed ok then the original line arrows will eventually all be replaced by generic arrows with no name and the caves will loose a bit of history and all that for absolutely no good reason.

Here is a small example of that historical stuff that I find so cool and why original arrows need to stay in place'
Thomas and I found a super hidden out of the way cave near El Dudu a few years ago and we were 100% sure to be the first one's diving there, we got in the water and to our surprise there was a line, and after a gnarly restriction the cave opens up into a very very cool horizontal fissure cave etc..., there was one line arrow in the entire system and it had the name Games on it.
Now instead of being A holes and changing the arrow for one of our own like some people do and in the process destroying any true historical info on that particular cave, after the dive we started to investigate and try to find out who this was we asked around and no one in the DR knew anything about who this was and no one had ever dove or even heard of this cave before.
Turns out this Brazilian cave explorer is called Gabriel Games was in the DR and he was diving with Rob Palmer in the mid 90's and they dove El Dudud and may have even been the first to dive that one too contrary to popular DR cave diving belief.
This is the kind of cool cave history stuff that an original line arrow hold and by respecting the original explorers and not touching arrows this is the kind of cool stuff that will remain in the caves and it adds to the cave diving experience, at least for me, I always look at arrows and names on the arrows I find it interesting.

I am keenly interested in the history of exploration and who did it and when, SO LEAVE ORIGINAL ARROWS IN PLACE!!!!!!

[PatrickWidmann]

Hey Phil,

There is an easy solution at least for the history part. The explorers simply have to survey their lines and publish their data thru organisations like QRSS or DRSS or use a program like arianesline.com (this is no advertising forrest its a free download and has nothing to do with me =) and put it in the internet for everyone to see.

By the way, I have written confirmation by "Vandal"#1 that if we put propper arrows, high viz, bigger, good quality and put names and distances on them he will not touch them! He even seems to like the idea...

2012 is the end of the mayan calender and hopefully the beginning of good and easy marked lines in the caves of the riviera maya.

[phillip1]

or the end of the world..lol
see you there in a few weeks

[Aktun]

Now that the Favorite Villain said he will be good boy, let`s do a witch hunt for the others, The Anonymous, heard the arrows move and the lines change even when the Favorite Villain is not here.Recently saw almost 100 feet of line simply vanished, caput! The Anonymous like to hide that room over and over, for years.
david

[RN]

What I am saying is that vandal#1 is pretty much out of control in Mexico systematically replacing line arrows in all caves with no regards whatsoever for any etiquette and more importantly safety, this individual will enter a cave and for whatever reason suddenly decide to change all the line arrows adding his own and taking away ones that are not wherever he pleases. this is not only goes against every established cave diving etiquette it is also potentially dangerous for guides and divers since directional information is being systematically being changed with no warning of any kind.
This is not a case of a "line war" were a rival group would vandalize each other's arrow's this is an individual who has some kind mental issues and is single hadeldly creating a potentially unsafe situation for no apparent reason.

Now it is my understanding that this individual is a long standing active instructor of a respected cave training agency and that this behavior has been repeatedly communicated to this agency and that so far they have done absolutely nothing.


The analogy is kind of like as if a police officer would systematically act in an unsafe and incredibly disrespectful way and that this behavior/actions was/were repeatedly communicated to the police department by the community and that nothing gets done about it.

Maybe no actual standards per say are being violated but I bet the agency would terminate the status of an instructor who would be drunk and bar fighting every night if they were repeatedly warned about him/her.

Actually, the agencies would only terminate the status of such an instructor if the instructor was arrested and convicted. There was a recent incident involving a cave instructor being arrested here in Florida and none of the agencies have done anything. I'm not talking about the cave agencies only, but also agencies such as TDI and PADI. From what I understand, their lawyers have told them they cannot do anything unless there is a conviction. It's not quite as simple as you think. And because the agencies are based out of the US they must abide by US laws.

We are talking about behavior that is potentially creating an unsafe situation and is definitely extremely disrespectful to pretty much the entire established Mexico cave diving community and they're clients.

IMO training agencies ARE responsible for all they're instructors and that when an instructor is out of control and is creating an unsafe situation such as in this case they should act, unfortunately as is the case most of the time if there is no legal threat to training agencies they do not care and turn a blind eye, which is why a public approach actually works best since a taring agencies can be made to look bad and that may "motivate" them to actually act and try and resolve the issue.

What I am saying is that if the training agency in question would threaten to terminate vandal #1 status if he continues this behavior then maybe vandal#1 would stop overnight.

It would be an empty threat since they can't legally do anything at this point. All I'm saying is the agencies are not responsible. You might use your energy more effectively in petitioning the agencies to institute new standards that would prevent changes from being made without approval of a line committee and if this is violated it could result in suspension or termination of instructor privileges. Then if this person were to make changes the agencies would be able to take action. I don't know if the agencies would adopt such a standard, but you never know unless you try.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Its been pretty well documented that Steve G has removed people's jump lines and personal markers while other teams were in the water, in order to install his lines and arrows. I can't see how the agencies can turn a blind eye to such facts, but they absolutely do.



The fact is, the agencies are straight up scared to stand up for anything at all in the face of possible litigation. They've long since made it a point to stay neutral for everything. They won't stand up to anything in the US, so don't hold your breath in MX.

[phillip1]

In my experience unless training agencies are either legally threatened or made to look bad publicly (and thus may loose clients) they simply do not care and do not stand up for anything.
The agencies are supposed to be entities that uphold safety and training standards run by people who should be dedicated to promoting safety and taking a hard stand against unsafe practices such as untrained diving etc.. and in this case one of they're own getting way out of hand.

They could act if they wanted too, with serious reprimand, warnings etc.. but it is IMO more a lack of will than anything.

[RN]

Its been pretty well documented that Steve G has removed people's jump lines and personal markers while other teams were in the water, in order to install his lines and arrows. I can't see how the agencies can turn a blind eye to such facts, but they absolutely do.

Hearsay is not fact. While I've heard these same stories, I have trouble believing jump lines and personal markers were returned while the divers that placed them were in the cave.

Again, I'm not taking sides here, just trying to be the voice of reason. There are a lot of things involved in situations like this. The agencies really can't afford to have to defend themselves against a lawsuit because they revoked someone's instructor rating with no standard in place to back their actions up.

Phillip, how do you know a warning hasn't already been issued?