Sad but true

[Aktun]

His beef goes back to people removing arrows that he put in years ago. .

Interesting

[Anders Knudsen]

Thats exactly what i though and havent done anything in the 5 years i live here. But in fact it got worse.
I also tired of explaining this situation to all the people i guide or teach.

I am very happy that u received great training enabeling you to exit the cave with no markers etc but generally this is not true for every cave diver which is also shown by local accident analysis which has error in navigation as one of the main contributing factors in local cave diving accidents.
Therefore i think it is our respnsability to do smth about it before we learn from yet another accident that we should have done smth before.
Also having distance markers and names of passages will help visiting cave divers in their dive planning and will increase the fun factor...

Thanks for your input!!!!

P

Well Patrick, during those 5 years, we have had Stickers, T-shirts Posters complaints to agencies and rumor spreading in the area - so even though you probably havent done anything in 5 years, I guess that if the rest of us did the same, it would actually help.
But I can also understand that you feel some sort of need to do something, I rarely get upset with anything - which is probably why I am not all up and fighting.
I instead spoke to him about this, and asked him to stop replacing arrows - lets see if that helps

I know that navigation is one of the challenges of Mexican caves, but shouldn't we all be able to find our way out without any permanent markers ? i mean I always put personal markers anyways. Only time i use the permanent markers, is if I am trying to navigate a for me new cave, it is nice knowing that you can find the blue abyss by simply following the blue arrows for instance :P
You could also argue that the pink arrows are safer in the white caves of mexico, than the white arrows we typically use - they are easier to see arent they ?
I like Kims idea about having line names on the arrows. it just means that we have to find a name for every line we add, as i guess the LLTLJR ( long line T left jump right ) line dosent make much sence

honestly if things could just stop now, i would prefer that - ok we have pink arrows in a lot of caves, but we will never get the original arrows back, changing them to a generic white arrow wont help much with safety, unless the arrow is broken.

And who knows, maybe in 10 years we will all be telling our students and clients stories about the line wars, and they will love it

[FW]

...When you all are talking about "removing" the arrows, are you talking about actually replacing them with arrows of another color? Or, just removing them period?....

Pink Arrow Guy in mostly interested in safety, and truly believes he is making things better for everyone. He replaces exploration line and arrows with goldline, and larger arrows. Some people think he should ask them first. The funny part is most of the contestants in this "feud" aren't even Mexican citizens, bur mostly cave divers that have moved there to dive the caves.

[LiteHedded]

taking the original arrows when replacing the line is a bit rude. I'd be pissed if someone trashed mine when replacing the line

[PatrickWidmann]

Hey there, no worries we only talk about permanent arrows here...well semi permanent actually

I'm new to cave diving...very new...but, I'm not sure I could hold any respect for someone that creates potential safety hazards in such a diving environment. When you all are talking about "removing" the arrows, are you talking about actually replacing them with arrows of another color? Or, just removing them period? If they are removing "permanent" arrows, do they ever mess with personal directional markers? I'm just Intro, but once I advance to Full and am installing my navigation markers, I'd be really pissed to find that someone messed with them on my way out. That's some serious business IMO.

[Kevin Leonhardt]

If the main concern is that the pink arrows being installed are of sub par construction, then why not source a quality arrow that is pink in color. We already know that diver #1 will be willing to assist in installing more pink arrows. Then you only have to convince diver #2 to stop cutting arrows, who benefits from this anyway?

[PatrickWidmann]

Hey anders.

All in all i agree. And yes in an ideal world everybody would mark everything good and everybody will dive safe etc but we just do not live in an ideal world...
Its also cool that you dont care too much and dont feel the need for change too much but 90% of guides in the area do feel that need together with the people we train and guide.

The high viz pink arrows are cool and forrest i even see that he tries to make cave diving safer by using them, really do, but the fact is that they are super bad quality...they completly bend out of shape as they are made from
Soft plastic and most of them had the nose cut off...

I even think having all of them in different high viz colors could be a good idea so they are different which aids memory and high viz for easy finding...but really color is not the issue but quality and completness...

I have no personal problem with either and couldnt care less who started it and why and how old this feud is but its not about them its about the area!

I also do not understand the comment about mexican or not forrest...i am an immigrant i pay taxes i speak spanish and four years from now have a mexican passport...would it count more if i would be a born mexican???
But in any case do not worry we also have some 100% hecho en mexico guys on board!!!

[Anders Knudsen]

Patrick - dont get me wrong, if the arrow is damaged or destroyed it should be changed - but changing arrows just because they are put in by this one guy, makes very little sense to me - besides contributing to the war.
Have you tried talking to him ? he might even want to donate a few hundred arrows for the project ? i know he did something to collect money for changing broken lines and such at one point, maybe he even wants to help support if the motivation is safer caves.

[PatrickWidmann]

Anyways i think i said all from my part...

Anybody wants to donate an arrow or two send me a PM and we look for the easiest way of getting them here. If you wanna send money i give you the info of a manufacturer that helps us out...but all on PM Please.

Thanks again to all that read this and contributed with ideas and point of views!!!

Safe diving to you all.
P

[PatrickWidmann]

I did answer that but anyways...
Only broken and disformed arrows need to be changed first...his arrows are cheap soft plastic so no use for them.
Then changing main arrows to put distance and names would be next steo.
Did i talk to him no, i am not taking sides nor involving myself or others in their fight.

Cheers

Patrick - dont get me wrong, if the arrow is damaged or destroyed it should be changed - but changing arrows just because they are put in by this one guy, makes very little sense to me - besides contributing to the war.
Have you tried talking to him ? he might even want to donate a few hundred arrows for the project ? i know he did something to collect money for changing broken lines and such at one point, maybe he even wants to help support if the motivation is safer caves.