Give a little to get a lot, First time at Telford and Jug

[diveconjeff]

OK, I have kind of let this stew. I have started a response several times but I guess I wanted to hear more from others.

First to dispel any misconceptions, I did not dive with Jason any place except for the two dives at Ginnie. We did not dive to thirds either time. We ran a continuous line to open water. And yes I placed a gap on the second dive at the Park Bench to the Bone Room line. In retrospect, it is this gap that has caused me some angst.

When I dove with Jason, we did our first dive and I had a chance to observe his demeanor. After carefully considering the first dive, I felt comfortable taking him on the jump for the second dive. I indicated I was thinking about a dive beyond his current level of training and asked him what he thought. I told Jason, we are adults here and we need to be prepared to suffer adult consequences for our actions. Again I asked him if he was comfortable going. We went over the plan very carefully and went into significant detail regarding the procedure regarding the gap. Again I asked him if he was comfortable.

Jason was attentive, competent, and very communicative above and below the surface. We thoroughly enjoyed the two dives.

I posted the report, not only to share my great weekend, but also in part to bring up the very discussion that has taken place. This has kind of stuck in my brain for a few days.

I recalled perhaps I dove a time or two beyond my training in the company of more experienced companions who later morphed into more of a mentor's role in some respects. These were wonderful learning experiences for me as they were similar “stretches” of skills, with nothing too extreme.

I was surprised at just how with a little conversation how easy it was to bring someone "in and beyond". I think the demeanor and that was displayed as well as the attitude went a long way towards making me comfortable with my choice at the time. I wouldn't go that far again with some Full Cave divers I’ve dove with in the past, but again that's my choice.

Thanks Rich for the reasoned and well thought response. It was good to hear it from that perspective as opposed to a simple berating by a "rule nazi". LET HE WHO IS WITH OUT SIN.... I’ve been involved with “Oh ****!” moments and was fortunate enough to have had the benefit of excellent and thorough training to fall back on.

Do I want to be responsible for introducing someone into one of those moments that has not had the proper training?

Do I want to have someone else responsible for introducing me into one of those moments for which I am not prepared?

I believe going forward these are two questions that will need to be honestly answered when diving with someone new to me.

Dive Safe !!

[pink arrows]

If anyone would like a first hand account of any of this, please PM me. Anyone else just interested in drama, feel free to run your mouth if it makes you feel good.

That being said, a certification limitation was broken on this dive. I have no interest in further discussing my actions publicly. No diver should be encouraged the dive beyond their abilities, comfort, and training.

Again, if anyone would like a first hand account of any of this, please PM me.

Hey Jason. What about diving past your sixths when your buddy flat out tells you she will not dive with you unless you are willing to follow intro rules.

Ps. What does PM mean? Public message right?

[Skorpiov]

Ps. What does PM mean? Public message right?

LOL, Almost.

[Greenwood_60]

Okay, I'll admit mistakes were made. I didn't think it was all that big at the time, but from the feedback I have been getting, apparently it was.

I will consider this a learning experience, on my way to being the safest cave diver I can be.

Thank you to everyone who has shown concern.

[pink arrows]

Okay, I'll admit mistakes were made. I didn't think it was all that big at the time, but from the feedback I have been getting, apparently it was.

I will consider this a learning experience, on my way to being the safest cave diver I can be.

Thank you to everyone who has shown concern.

The problem is, I don't think you realize how your "mistakes" affect everyone. Your blatent disregard for land owner relations is going to get systems closed down. Breaking rules above or below the surface (ie doing jumps or gaining access to sites "the way the locals do it") can be detrimental to the whole cave diving community. And it isn't entirely your fault. The people you're diving with should not be taking you past your limits. The only person who can do that is a cave instructor. If you feel like you are ready to go beyond the limits of an intro cave diver, then get the training for it. If you're not ready to go to the next level, then stay at the level you are at, and dive that way.

I won't dive with someone past their limit (unless of course they flat out LIE to me about it), because I don't want to have to be the one who reads the accident report (or be IN the accident report) when something goes wrong and they are not prepared to handle it. Even if it is something completely unrelated to breaking intro limits, when someone dies in a cave and they are past their limits, it always comes back to that. "If they had only followed the rules."

You keep putting yourself in a negative light on here. Diving sidemount, gapping Telford, doing jumps anywhere, diving past sixths: They're all controversial issues. Just take a few days to finish up your training and they stop being a problem.

As much as I didn't want to make this personal; on a personal note: Please do not dive with any of my buddies unless you are willing to do so safely. That means sticking to the guidelines, having functional equipment (if your reel is going to break twice in one week, its time to buy a new one or use your buddy's), and complying with rules set forth by the land owners who allow us to dive on their property, whether it be state or privately owned property.

I would encourage you to expect the same courtesies from the people you dive with.

SAFE diving.

[stairman]

Hey Jason, if anything good can come out of this, its that youve got alot of experience with other good divers so your apprentice class should be a cakewalk. Its been a pleasure diving with you and well do it again. With that said I think this thread should be locked but thats only my opinion and I was wrong once before and thought I was wrong which was right.